Respectfully submitted by Lawrence E. Rafferty (rafflaw)-Weekend Contributor
This past week’s news reports of the Senate report on the CIA Torture program were both distressing and enlightening. I was dismayed to not only read what the full extent of the CIA’s Torture program was, but also when I read pundits and former CIA officials claim that rectal rehydration was merely a medical procedure! I was further discouraged when commenters on this blog made claims that waterboarding and other torture tactics were either necessary or what the devils deserved.
Very few pundits or commenters seem to care if the so-called Enhanced Interrogation techniques were legal or ethical when the CIA resorted to them shortly after 9/11. This “debate” over the actions taken in our name by the CIA has gone from a report based on the CIA’s own words to denials that the techniques were torture, to claims that great intelligence value was gained using the torture and claims that it was a biased report written by Democrats.
When we were attacked on September 11, 2001, most of the world was supporting the United States in its hours of grief and anger. What happened after the attacks quickly turned the tide of world opinion against us and created new enemies. When the CIA delved into its historical “playbook” to devise black sites and brutal interrogation techniques, the result, in my opinion, was a loss of our ethical and legal bearings that are still out of whack today.
When our greatest generation fought enemies stronger and just as brutal as what we face today, our forces were held to a higher standard than the enemy we were fighting. The idea that America does not torture or mistreat its prisoners or enemies is not a new one. It dates back at least to when General George Washington decided that British regulars and paid mercenaries fighting for the British were not to be mistreated in our detention facilities.
He made that decision knowing what too many of our soldiers had experienced under the hands of the British forces. We were supposed to be better than our enemies.
When the CIA delved into the black sites and torture techniques, another US agency, the FBI balked and questioned the tactics being practiced by the CIA. The FBI was gaining valuable information from al Qaeda operative, Abu Zubaydah, after his capture in March of 2002, but that all changed when he was put into isolation for 47 days.
“The Senate report describes the F.B.I. questioning — both in the hospital and later at the black site — as successful. Intelligence reports indicate he provided valuable information, but denied knowing anything about plots against America. But agency officials believed he was holding out. In response, Mr. Mitchell offered a menu of interrogation options.
While C.I.A. and Justice Department lawyers debated the legality of the tactics, the report reveals, Mr. Zubaydah was left alone in a cell in Thailand for 47 days. The Senate report asserts that isolation, not resistance, was the reason he stopped talking in June. Mr. Soufan said he was livid when he read that. “What kind of ticking-bomb scenario is this if you can leave him in isolation for 47 days?” he said.
For three weeks in August 2002, Mr. Zubaydah was questioned using the harshest measures available, including waterboarding. But the Senate report says he never revealed information about a plot against the United States. The C.I.A. concluded he had no such information.” New York Times
The CIA has used harsh interrogation and torture during past wars and conflicts and eventually the agency was brought under control. Waterboarding is torture, no matter what name it is given. Isolation, rectal rehydration, sleep deprivation, to name a few, are torture. We have prosecuted past enemies for waterboarding and even some of our soldiers who crossed the legal and moral line.
Why is it now only a crime if our enemies do it to us? Will we regain the soul of America again and finally get past partisan grievances to retake the moral standing of our nation?
We talk often on this blog about the rule of law. Whether it is a President who is grabbing more power for the Executive Branch or citizens of color who seemingly are undervalued by our Justice system. An argument can be made that ever since money starting taking control of our government, we have lost our rule of law because the wealthy and powerful seem to be immune to prosecution. Does the CIA stand above the rule of law?
Will the CIA be brought under control? Will government officials who authorized the torture and those that carried it out and those that refused to prosecute it be brought to justice? I submit that if we do not get control over the CIA our collective souls will continue to suffer in our eyes and in the eyes of the world. As Ali H. Soufan, the former FBI interrogator mentioned earlier says, our actions have consequences.
“‘We played into the enemy’s hand,” said Ali H. Soufan, a former F.B.I. agent who clashed with the C.I.A. over its interrogation tactics. “Now we have American hostages in orange jumpsuits because we put people in orange jumpsuits.”’ New York Times It is an overused phrase, but it fits here:
“The whole world is watching.”
Only we can resurrect the soul of America. We are better than torture. At least we used to be.
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That’s uncivil Aridog. 😀
And here I will channel Paul “You’re not the boss of me!” LOL, one must laugh because his last hour of discussion has been comical. I have to go run some errands now.
Paul C. Schulte said …
I use either JT or Jonathan, whichever seems more comfortable at time.
“More comfortable?” How about simple common courtesy?
Maybe I am too old fashioned to hang out here.
Aridog – regardless, JT, Jonathan or Professor Turley rarely reads this blog and never participates except to delete comments and expel the occasional blogger.
Inga ~ you are correct. I’m not a hardliner Conservative. Maybe I’m a Libertarian and need to research those views more closely. I am however, old fashioned in that, we keep our secrets to ourselves. It might be dirty laundry to some, but it’s our dirty laundry and none of any other countries business. I bet Dianne Feinstein has some skeletons in her closet and doesn’t want the public to know about it. What gets me is that other leaders from countries with flagrant human rights abuses are jumping all over this.
My hero’s are our military, whom risk their lives for the freedoms we enjoy and some on here spit on. The police are hero’s and so are people like you, nurses whom work day and night, to help people get well. You help people who suffer in pain, either after a car wreck, an assault, a surgery or a death. Hero’s are our mothers and fathers who work to put food on the table and a roof over their families heads.
I don’t even consider Bush a hero, he was just doing his job. I don’t consider sports players or actors to be hero’s even though their treated like they are. They make a grotesque amount of money for absolutely no contribution to this country. Just my opinion. 🙂
Anyone that saves a child’s life is a hero. I cannot stand John McCain but he is a hero because he risks his life and was a hostage, for freedom. Anyone whom can only contribute to make this country look bad is no hero in my book. Their a zero. Prof. Turley is a hero for taking on the establishment, against his own party, to show them what our Constitution means. I may not like his politics but I love his spirit and principles on some very important issues. Obama is supposed to be a Harvard trained Constitutionalist, but look what they made of him and we all are suffering for it.
Many commenters use “JT”. JT hasn’t complained about it that I am aware of.
Inga said…
Aridog,…My comment was actually not meant as an insult to Paul. It was a sincere attempt at understanding his issues.
Bull Sh*t.
Just please…please. It is impossible for you to be that obtuse.
Don’t apologize, then…just be a jerk.
Feel better?
Correction * several OTHER networks* speaking out against torture, which I gave him kudos for doing so.
rafflaw…Oh, bull cr*p, his proper name and title is not that hard to type out…”JT” sounds like a reference to Bubba down at the beer hall…but I am old and unconverted. I use “rafflaw” only because you do as your “nick” otherwise it would be the Lawrence Rafferty I think you deserve. Never mind that anyone who likes dogs is okay with me. I’m way prejudiced on that matter.
Aridog,
Apologize, for WHAT?? Absolutely NOT. I meant exactly what I said. I wondered what the heck was wrong with him and I still wonder. My comment was actually not meant as an insult to Paul. It was a sincere attempt at understanding his issues.
Inga – I took your comment to be insulting and uncivil. However, until you have tried to lie your way out of it, I let it go. You are like a kid with their hand caught in the candy jar swearing up and down it isn’t them.
Aridog, SANDI SAID IT.
on 1, December 16, 2014 at 1:43 amSandi Hemming
Inga, Professor Turley has been on Megyn Kelly’s show several times. He has discussed torture and you can see on his face the difficulty he has talking about torture. He thinks water boarding is, others say no. JT is on Fox quite a bit, you should watch him.
**************
Sandi said JT was on the Megyn Kelley show speaking about torture. I do not recall seeing JT on any FOX news show speaking abou torture. As I said I don think FOx wants him on their network talking about torture, however as I said several times now, I may have missed the show. Anyone have a link to a video? I KNOW FULL WELL that JT has been on one networks speaking pu against torture, I linked some of those videos MYSELF.
My God, I give up! I haven’t seen Dr. Turley ever on Fox. Ever! That OK? When he does and discusses torture I will let this site know.
Inga said…
Aridog, it’s me being very frustrated with him. He said some very uncivil things to me on this thread, I could’ve said far worse.
“Frustrated” is no excuse for non-civil personal remarks. Period. Even if I accepted your premise that he has been non-civil to you, apparently two wrongs make a right?
Please.
Pejorative reference to medical conditions is chickensh*t…and if anyone, you should know that.
Just apologize.
I know it is hard for some, but try it (I have)…you will like it.
PS: I’d not say a word if I didn’t give a dang…listen for a change.
Aridog,
I am sure that Inga’s use of JT for Professor Turley is not exclusive. I have used it myself as have several other commenters over the years and even on this thread earlier. I am sure it is not meant as a slur or a derogatory label, but just quicker to type than his full name.
I use either JT or Jonathan, whichever seems more comfortable at time. Speaking of which, he still owes us an explanation of that sign in Italy or wherever, the one we spent all day trying to figure out while he was on vacation.
Inga said…
Do not recall seeing JT on FOX discussing the US Torture Program.
Who said he/ they ever did? You are again mis-directing a comment response. That was NOT the point, which you continue to miss.
I have no doubt that Fox/Megyn would invite Professor Turley to comment on the “torture ” issue…and they may still do so. Megyn Kelly has disagreed with her own folks, most notable O’Reilly, thus I doubt she’d fear Professor Turley’s opinions any more than she has before. Give her the credit she is due. BTW…why do you repeatedly refer to him as “JT” instead of “Professor Turley?”
He will only be “JT” to me if we share several dinners and maybe a beer or two (if I could) and got to know each other on a personal face to face level. YMMV.
Megyn Kelly may be a stunning woman, but she is also a straight forward reporter/commenter…the equal to any I see on CNN, ABC, CBS, or Al Jezzera, all of which I watch. NBC is hopeless … I’d think Comcast/Xfinity would clean house…but so far, nope. They also refuse to air “Universal Sports” ( which broadcasts Eurovison coverage) even though they own the dang thing. Never-the-less Direct TV and Dish both broadcast “Universal Sports” … go figure.
Aridog,
Do you see what I mean? Paul thinks he has a handle on what is “truth”. He thinks he can get away with incivility because he claims it’s truth. These are the kinds of games I am speaking of here. It’s sickening, tiresome and uncivil.
And Aridog, I don’t usually worry about you misunderstanding or mischaracterizing my comments. No need for me to wonder what the “issue” is. I honestly don’t understand Paul’s motives. I do know they are extremely frustrating.
Inga – you need only be concerned about my motives if calling you out becomes a crime.
Yes indeed we should watch Dr.Mitchel who personally tortured prisoners. What a patriot! I watched the interview last evening. It was disgusting, shameful, pathetic. This is a DOCTOR of Psychology? He needs to lose his license to practice. I would love to see JT on directly after this ghoul and I would love to hear JT describe the immorality and the illegality of torture.
Aridog, it’s me being very frustrated with him.He said some very uncivil things to me on this thread, I could’ve said far worse.
Inga – there is a difference between the truth and uncivil. The truth may hurt, but its not uncivil.
Inga said …
Paul, perhaps you have some residual from your stroke.
Nice.
Does that violate the “civility rule” or does one have to email somebody?
BTW…I have some “residuals” from my two go rounds with cancer…like resurgent alcoholism, depression over government inanities I still address in consult, and the usual concerns over cancer. Not afraid to die, but in no hurry either. Fortunately I have survived (again) cancer, defeated alcoholism (again), and no longer sweat federal stupidity…my successor has done a fine job keeping it in perspective and her principles intact. Shes’ tougher than me.
Be sure you cite all that next time you comment on my remarks.
What were you thinking?
Inga…you missed my point. Entirely. It was that merely appearing on Kelly’s show does not mean agreement with all view expressed there, or any general narrative posed for Fox News.
It seemed to me that you and some others implied otherwise. Correct me if I am wrong after you re-read your remarks and those of others vis a vis Megyn Kelly. If wrong, I apologize…but do tell me what was meant otherwise. I note that Professor Turley tends to adhere to his principles and beliefs, where ever he appears and on whatever topic he discusses. I’ll say the same thing for rafflaw and Darren … (and multiple others here, agreeing with me or not, if arguments are presented with out staccato hysterics) and you can hardly say I frequently agree with rafflaw’s positions, even if I appreciate his presentation. Good Lawd, I’ve even agreed with you on occasion…rare, but there none-the-less over a fairly long period of time.
Inga – the issues are all on your side. I am fine and dandy on this side. 🙂 Living in the tall corn.
http://jonathanturley.org/2014/12/14/snowden-greenwald-and-poitras-receive-prestigious-human-rights-award-in-berlin/
Oh my.
Inga – they gave Obama the Nobel Peace Prize for doing nothing and he hasn’t done anything peaceful since. I don’t worry about those wimpy Europeans. When they need protecting from Putin they will take the prizes back.
Aridog, I didn’t indicate or do I believe for a minute that JT agrees with most of what gets aired on FOX. That was not my meaning. My meaning was that. Do not recall seeing JT on FOX discussing the US Torture Program. Perhaps he did and I missed the program. The reason. I brought it up was because I have doubts as to whether FOX wants JT talking about his views on the immorality and the illegality of torture on any of their news shows. The criticism wasn’t on JT, it WAS on FOX.
That is a mischaracterization, a specialty for some here. Many of us PERCEPTIVE people are grateful Snowden exposed the lies of the NSA. We PERCEPTIVE folks do not consider him a hero. He has some serious baggage, and is too narcissistic to be a hero. There are very few heroes in this world. And the vast majority of true heroes do so w/o any fanfare.