We recently discussed videotaped of Iranians licking the doors and objects of Islamic shrines in the belief that such traditions are protected by God from Coronavirus. Now, Greek Orthodox churches in Australia have announced that they will allow congregations of hundreds of people to sip wine from the same spoon during mass because “the holy cup cannot carry disease.”
Greek Orthodox priests dip a spoon into a chalice of wine and place it into the mouths of parishioners as part of communion. That is obviously a practice that would guarantee the spread of Coronavirus, but Steven Scoutas, a spokesperson for the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia, Rev. Steven Scoutas, insisted that “once we decide to go to church, we believe there is absolutely no possibility of contracting disease from the holy cup.” The reason is simple: faith. He stated “[w]e believe that no disease or illness can exist in holy communion, which we believe is the body and blood of Christ.”
In Australia, there are 373,000 people identified as Greek Orthodox, which now is the exact number of those persons being added to the high-risk category for contracting Coronavirus.
These controversies magnify the conflict between secular health policies and the free exercise of religion. Such practices fuel the spread of the virus which is a danger to the country at large. In the United States, even with our robust protections of the free exercise of religion, the state could curtail such practices. There is a point where the “laying the hands of the faithful” is also a vehicle for the pandemic.
The logic of the church is obvious and potentially deadly. If the wine is truly transformed into the blood of Christ, how can it be tainted? Of course, one can also say that it is the spoon that is tainted, but no health official would sign off on the practice even with changing spoons due to the breathing around and handling of the common chalice.
It is an interesting twist on Justificatio sola fide (or justification by faith alone) as a doctrine in Christian faiths. It allows for faith alone (rather than good works) to forgive the transgressions of holy scripture. Yet, the state is not required to recognize the doctrine when faith alone may spread the disease or virus. There is also that precept that “Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.”
May I suggest that instead of the fruit of the vine, the fruit of the sugar cane (rum fortified to 151 proof) be sanctified for the duration. Alternatively, fortifying the fruit of the vine with the 151 proof fruit of the sugar cane to at least 120 proof (60% alcohol by volume) could be used.
once we decide to go to church, we believe there is absolutely no possibility of contracting disease from the holy cup.” The reason is simple: faith. He stated “[w]e believe that no disease or illness can exist in holy communion, which we believe is the body and blood of Christ.”
Well, you just can’t fix stupid.
Did you see the Muslims licking their holy relics with gusto? Same deal there. Of course in Islam there is no legitimate “Caesar.”
Did some shopping this morning
Stopped at Taco Bell & got some goodies. Then went to a wine & sprits shop. Bought a six pack of Corona Extra beer. Some customers in front of me were hoarding the booze.
Then went to a local hunting shop. Bought some ammo. Clue…Paid more, than for food & toilet paper.
It is amazing how misinformed people are about the Eastern Orthodox Church. This is not an Australia thing. There are 260 million Orthodox Christians worldwide following the same practices. The Eastern Orthodox Church is the original Christian Church formed prior to Roman Catholicism. The original Christian churches were in Antioch, Alexandria, Rome, Constantinople and Jerusalem. Rome split during The Great Schism of 1054. So I guess if the “common cup” practice has been going on for 2,000 years, we should be extinct by now with everything that has been spread? Study up.
The Eastern Orthodox Church is the original Christian Church formed prior to Roman Catholicism.
It has no claim of temporal priority to the Church of Rome. The liturgical practice is older, but disciplinary practices attending the clerical state are not.
yes, and the essence of the distinction is not priority over Rome, but equality among the bishops.
St John Chrysostom is also a Doctor of the Roman Catholic Church, not just the Orthodox. and he is as much the other of the Orthodox rite as anybody. Im no expert but the Tridentine Mass was obviously closer to the Orthodox rite than the Novus Ordo.
in theory Orthodox bishops are free to do differently in their own episcopates.
even in the Catholic Church this will be a bishop level call.
they can most certainly decide to forego the cup. this is their own interpretation of the faith and they’ve interpreted it with a little wiggle plenty over 1900 years
It is amazing how misinformed people are about the Eastern Orthodox Church. This is not an Australia thing. There are 260 million Orthodox Christians worldwide following the same practices. The Eastern Orthodox Church is the original Christian Church formed prior to Roman Catholicism. The original Christian churches were in Antioch, Alexandria, Rome, Constantinople and Jerusalem. Rome split during The Great Schism of 1054. So I guess if the “common cup” practice has been going on for 2,000 years, we should be extinct by now with everything that has been spread? Study up.
I have always disliked the communal chalice. My parents never allowed us to drink out of it because of the health hazard. I thought it was unwise of the Church to keep using it, after germ theory.
Other churches use individual cups. There is no reason the Catholic Church cannot follow suit. It was a fairly recent addition to the mass. If some churches suspend the cup during the Covid-19 outbreak, then they admit the cup may transmit contagion, and should stop using it altogether, changing to individual cups. And drinking the dregs from the community chalice is a health hazard.
As for those who say there aren’t known transmission cases…that is because when someone gets sick or a cold sore, how would they know if it was the guy who coughed on them, or the cup? I find it interesting how the same people I know who have argued for years about how safe the communal chalice is are now abstaining during the outbreak. It is either safe, or it’s not. I think the mass should be more inclusive. Offering the sacrament in a form that so many refuse for health reasons is not inclusive.
But that’s just my perspective as someone who was raised Catholic, still love and miss the Church, but now practice a closely related denomination due to a few issues.
I thought it was unwise of the Church to keep using it, after germ theory.
Strange as it may seem to you, not everyone has the mentality of a cul-de-sac dweller outside of Fresno.
Absurd, from your farmhouse in upstate New York, “cul de sac dweller outside Fresno’ might sound like an elitist label. But here in California that doesn’t necessarily sound like gracious living.
but now practice a closely related denomination due to a few issues.
you never knew your own Catholic Faith. I’m a convert to the Catholic Faith after being raised a Southern Baptist. My wife, a devout cradle Catholic, and I have been married for 40+ yrs, where we raised our children as devout Catholics. We would never say any of the stuff you are spouting here. In fact you are looking rather ridiculous
It probably depends on the proof of the wine used. As with enough ethanol, viruses will be killed.
Besides, real Christians realize their life is in God’s hands, and there are many things outside of our control.
But deciding whether to drink out of the same cup as hundreds of other people during a pandemic is within our control.
Also, the alcohol proof does not affect the outside of the chalice, where your mouth rests. Only the inside. Wine is not isopropyl alcohol. There are some diseases that would require soaking for 20 minutes or more in isopropyl alcohol to destroy it. There is not a 20 minute delay between people.
When people stop drinking from the community chalice during an outbreak, their actions show that they really do think that contagion is possible.
It is understandable that many Christians believe that The Lord’s Supper could not possibly carry any virus. However, the promise of never getting sick from it or anything else in this fallen world has never been given by Christ or the Apostles. We R promised wholeness, no sin or sickness, in the Resurrection not before. In this life Christians confess they R sinners & need forgiveness & we all die from some disease because we R sinners. Again, Christ never promised no sickness on this side of the grave. It would be good if Christians would read the Scripture for themselves instead of believing in self-imposed magic and the words of another sinner.
The Orthodox Catholic Churches distribute Communion differently from the Roman Catholic Church. Orthodox faithful approach the priest, who deposits a particle of consecrated host floating in wine in the silver chalice via a long metallic spoon into the mouth of the communicant. The mouth never touches anything but that which lands on the tongue, the Body and Blood of Christ
Shame on you Turley for your swipe at Orthodox Catholics. You could have delved just a tad to understand their rituals
Again, there are no ‘Orthodox Catholics’. The Orthodox bodies are venerable but schismatic. There are Eastern-rite Catholics: Byzantine, West Syrian, East Syrian, Armenian, and Alexandrian. I think the Armenian and Alexandrian have just one hierarchy. The others have parallel hierarchies. In the U.S. you have three Byzantine-rite hierarchies (Ukrainian, Melkite, Roumanian) which have six eparchies in toto. (Four Ukrainian bishops, one Melkite, and one Roumanian).
Again, you are mistaken
Pope Paul VI lifted the excommunication on the Orthodox Churches while Patriarch Athenagoras lifted the excommunication on the Roman Catholic Church in 1965
“The Eastern Orthodox Church, officially the Orthodox Catholic Church, is the second-largest Christian church, with approximately 260 million baptised members.”
Wiki
They lifted the mutual excommunications. The Orthodox bodies are still schismatic.
“The Holy Cup Cannot Carry Disease”
Swab it, and let’s find out.
They haven’t ruled out gastrointestinal spread, but the virus is predominantly spread by contact with respiratory particles. They haven’t ruled out spread by asymptomatic carriers either, but even the advocates of that thesis at this time estimate that 90% of the spread is from symptomatic carriers.
Not sure about the Orthodox Church, but I do know Byzantine-rite Catholic Churches and communion is received on the tongue. The instrument isn’t grasped by the recipient as if you were downing cough syrup.
I think there’s been a general dispensation from attending Mass in many Latin-rite dioceses in this country, applicable to the population over 60, and sick people are always dispensed as a matter of course. Even if you’re there, you can always skip communion.
Such a gross ritual.
Zippy you are nothing more then irrelevant religious bigot. Your opinion and rude comment means nothing to someone who believes.
You must be a joy to any religious friends you may have, although I seriously doubt you have any friends responding with a comment like yours.
bill53:
“Zippy you are nothing more then irrelevant religious bigot. Your opinion and rude comment means nothing to someone who believes.”
****************************
Funny, that’s exactly what the Hale-Boppers said right after they signed up for Alien Abduction Insurance.
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities –even to yourself. Wanna check the chemical composition of that “wine” after consecration? We can do a microbe screen, too! Remember “Bigots” Live Longer!
Still gross for a communal cup.
Gross to you. Life-saving to millions of men and women since the practice began 2000 years ago, e.g. St Thomas Aquinas, St Augustine, St Francis of Assisi, G. K. Chesterton, Tony Blair, Robert Bork, Clarence Thomas, Antonin Scalia, JRR Tolkien, Michael Novak, John Henry Newman, and on and on and on
try to mimic the lives of these greats
JThorsen:
It wasn’t until the 20th century, in the Second Vatican Council, in 1959 I think, that it was decided to allow communion under both kinds to the laity. Prior to that the Blood of Christ was only administered to the clergy. If I recall correctly, at least by the Middle Ages, communion of both kinds was restricted to the most “pure” or the clergy and certain other people. The general population did not receive the chalice.
This is why not all Churches even offered the Community Chalice when I was a kid.
“It wasn’t until the 20th century, in the Second Vatican Council, in 1959 I think, that it was decided to allow communion under both kinds to the laity.”
***************
Exactly right Karen but why bring facts or history into the mind of the zealot on a crusade. That little wipe after you drink is comical. Smear the germs around.
BTW drinking communal wine is gross. I think the Eastern Rite uses a serving spoon but its not better.
https://www.ntnl.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Common-Cup-CDC.pdf
American Journal of Infection Control October 1998 * Volume 26 * Number 5
Risk of Infectious Disease Transmission from a Common Communion Cup
To the Editor:
For more than 2 decades, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has stated an official position to inquirers (eg, lay public, physicians, nurses, and other health care professionals) about the risk of infectious disease transmission from a common communion cup. Although no documented transmission of any infectious disease has ever been traced to the use of a common communion cup, a great deal of controversy surrounds this issue; the CDC still continues to receive inquiries about this topic. In this letter, the CDC strives to achieve a balance of adherence to scientific principles and respect for religious beliefs.
Within the CDC, the consensus of the National Center for Infectious Diseases and the National Center for Human Immunodeficiency Virus, Sexually Transmitted Diseases, and Tuberculosis is that a theoretic risk of transmitting infectious diseases by using a common communion cup exists, but that the risk is so small that it is undetectable. The CDC has not been called on to investigate any episodes or outbreaks of infectious diseases that have been allegedly linked to the use of a common communion cup.
However, outbreaks or clusters of infection might be difficult to detect if: (1) a high prevalence of disease (eg, infectious mononucleosis, influenza, herpes, strep throat, common cold) exists in the community, (2) diseases with oral routes of transmission have other modes of transmission (ie, fecal-oral, hand-to-mouth/nose, airborne), (3) the length of the incubation period for the disease is such that other opportunities for exposure cannot be ruled out unequivocally, and (4) no incidence data exist for comparison purposes (ie, the disease is not on the reportable disease list and therefore is not under public health surveillance).
Experimental studies have shown that bacteria and viruses can contaminate a common communion cup and survive despite the alcohol content of the wine. Therefore, an ill person or asymptomatic carrier drinking from the common cup could potentially expose other members of the congregation to pathogens present in saliva. Were any diseases transmitted by this practice, they most likely would be common viral illnesses, such as the common cold. However, a recent study of 681 persons found that people who receive Communion as often as daily are not at higher risk of infection compared with persons who do not receive communion or persons who do not attend Christian church services at all.
In summary, the risk for infectious disease transmission by a common communion cup is very low, and appropriate safeguards-that is, wiping the interior and exterior rim between communicants, use of care to rotate the cloth during use, and use of a clean cloth for each service-would further diminish this risk. In addition, churches may wish to consider advising their congregations that sharing the communion cup is discouraged if a person has an active respiratory infection (ie, cold or flu) or moist or open sores on their lips (eg, herpes).
Lilia P. Manangan, RN, MPH Lynne M. Sehulster, PhD Linda Chiarello, RN, MS, CIC Dawn N. Simonds, BS William R. Jarvis, MD Hospital Infections Program, National Center for Infectious Diseases, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, US Department of Health and Human Services Atlanta, Georgia.
bill53:
Many Catholics do not drink from the community cup because they do indeed think that it can spread contagion, including herpes. That is a euphemism for saying they find it gross.
My parents never allowed us as kids to drink from the community cup. When asked, my father’s face scrunched up that it was not a good idea for everyone to drink out of the same cup. Which meant he found it gross. Since some people believe it is impossible to get others sick by the cup, some people known to be sick would partake of it.
As someone raised Catholic, now practicing a similar denomination, I did not find it offensive to state that obvious, that drinking out of the same cup, or sharing the same spoon, is gross. Although the Eastern Orthodox do try not to brush the spoon on people’s mouths, clergy use the same spoon for hundreds of people. Including sick people. It is stuck into their mouths where they breath on it. Cough on it. Right next to their lips and tongue. You bet it would get contaminated.
Worry about the community cup is one of the most common threads on Catholic blogs and message boards. It is a common concern. And on those boards the word “gross” routinely comes up by the faithful.
karen
The “faithful” do not refer to the Body & Blood of Christ as “gross”. It isn’t a worry for “faithful” Catholics anymore than sitting on a pew, touching a church door or exchanging the sign of peace as being “gross”. Pray tell how you describe the Incarnation, the Immaculate Conception, the Ascension? Clearly you take offense at Christian Truths & Sacred Traditions that caused many to fall away from Christ centuries ago.
Like Rod Dreher, you left the Catholic Church but here you are harping on the institution, even worse claiming some type of brilliant wisdom from your childhood days in spite of having left the Church and “now practicing a similar denomination” which any devout Catholic knows is heretical.
Lastly, it is not isopropyl alcohol that disinfects Coronavirus. It is ethanol. They are different.
It would be really helpful and further you cause if you stopped, looked & listened, and perhaps did some research before you make comments on here
https://www.ibtimes.com/coronaviruses-can-be-inactivated-within-minute-using-these-disinfectants-study-2924090
Coronaviruses Can Be Inactivated Within A Minute Using These Disinfectants:
The analysis of 22 studies reveals that human coronaviruses such as Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome (SARS) coronavirus, Middle East Respiratory Syndrome (MERS) coronavirus or endemic human coronaviruses (HCoV) can persist on inanimate surfaces like metal, glass or plastic for up to 9 days, but can be efficiently inactivated by surface disinfection procedures with 62-71% ethanol, 0.5% hydrogen peroxide or 0.1% sodium hypochlorite within 1 minute,” concluded the study published in the Journal of Hospital infections.
Isopropyl alcohol (isopropanol) works, too, according to both the WHO and CDC:
https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/cant-find-hand-sanitizer-the-world-health-organization-has-a-recipe-to-make-your-own
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/infection-control/hcp-hand-sanitizer.html
As a Christian, no, I don’t take offense at religion. I was raised Catholic, and now attend Lutheran Church. I did not refer to the Blood of Christ as gross. Read more carefully. I said sharing a cup with hundreds of people was gross. Gross is a subjective term. I can find it gross while you do not. It certainly does not follow OPIM (Other Potentially Infectious Material) safety training.
Yes, not only me, but many other Catholics find the thought of sharing a cup with hundreds of people to be gross. Just because you do not does not make it an invalid opinion.
The Purificator is not Amphyl or Maquat.
Read what I said a little more closely:
“There are some diseases that would require soaking for 20 minutes or more in isopropyl alcohol to destroy it. There is not a 20 minute delay between people.” Did I say it would kill Covid19? Why no, I did not. Please note that your study listed an example using other coronaviruses. Coronavirus is a family that includes everything from the common cold, SARS, and Covid-19. Covid-19, or SARS-CoV2, uses a lipid coating rather than a capsid, so it is relatively easy to kill.
Why did I mention isopropyl alcohol? Because some people think that the low alcohol content of wine would kill viruses. I mentioned that the alcohol content is too low, and that it does not reach the outside of the cup upon which you rest your lower lip. Sacramental wine is most certainly not 124 proof. Sacramental wine ranges from 10 to 36 proof. Yes, the alcohol in wine is ethanol, but for people at home, isopropyl alcohol and bleach are their available disinfectants.
You are incorrect when you said, “Lastly, it is not isopropyl alcohol that disinfects Coronavirus. It is ethanol. They are different.”
https://cen.acs.org/biological-chemistry/infectious-disease/How-we-know-disinfectants-should-kill-the-COVID-19-coronavirus/98/web/2020/03
“Enveloped viruses like SARS-CoV-2—which rely on a protective lipid coating—are the easiest type to deactivate. In contrast with many gastrointestinal viruses like norovirus which have a tough protein shell called a capsid, viruses with this fatty wrapping are relatively vulnerable.
“It’s much more sensitive. It’s sort of a wimpy protective shell,” says virologist Seema Lakdawala of the University of Pittsburgh.
There are a few ways to burst this flimsy shell. Alcohol-based products disintegrate the protective lipids. Quaternary ammonium disinfectants, commonly used in health-care and food-service industries, attack protein and lipid structures, thwarting the pathogen’s typical mode of infection. Bleach and other potent oxidizers swiftly break down a virus’s essential components.”
Note that alcohol-based refers to isopropyl alcohol.
So, perhaps follow your own snarky advice, and look into the matter prior to taking a swipe at another poster.
Here are a list of commercial disinfectants so far approved for SARS-CoV-2 (Covid-19)
https://www.epa.gov/pesticide-registration/list-n-disinfectants-use-against-sars-cov-2
As a Christian, no, I don’t take offense at religion. I was raised Catholic, and now attend Lutheran Church. I did not refer to the Blood of Christ as gross. Read more carefully. I said sharing a cup with hundreds of people was gross. Gross is a subjective term. I can find it gross while you do not. It certainly does not follow OPIM (Other Potentially Infectious Material) safety training.
Yes, not only me, but many other Catholics find the thought of sharing a cup with hundreds of people to be gross. Just because you do not does not make it an invalid opinion.
The Purificator is not Amphyl or Maquat.
Read what I said a little more closely:
“There are some diseases that would require soaking for 20 minutes or more in isopropyl alcohol to destroy it. There is not a 20 minute delay between people.” Did I say it would kill Covid19? Why no, I did not. Please note that your study listed an example using other coronaviruses. Coronavirus is a family that includes everything from the common cold, SARS, and Covid-19. Covid-19, or SARS-CoV2, uses a lipid coating rather than a capsid, so it is relatively easy to kill.
Why did I mention isopropyl alcohol? Because some people think that the low alcohol content of wine would kill viruses. I mentioned that the alcohol content is too low, and that it does not reach the outside of the cup upon which you rest your lower lip. Sacramental wine is most certainly not 124 proof. Sacramental wine ranges from 10 to 36 proof. Yes, the alcohol in wine is ethanol, but for people at home, isopropyl alcohol and bleach are their available disinfectants.
You are incorrect when you said, “Lastly, it is not isopropyl alcohol that disinfects Coronavirus. It is ethanol. They are different.”
https://cen.acs.org/biological-chemistry/infectious-disease/How-we-know-disinfectants-should-kill-the-COVID-19-coronavirus/98/web/2020/03
“Enveloped viruses like SARS-CoV-2—which rely on a protective lipid coating—are the easiest type to deactivate. In contrast with many gastrointestinal viruses like norovirus which have a tough protein shell called a capsid, viruses with this fatty wrapping are relatively vulnerable.
“It’s much more sensitive. It’s sort of a wimpy protective shell,” says virologist Seema Lakdawala of the University of Pittsburgh.
There are a few ways to burst this flimsy shell. Alcohol-based products disintegrate the protective lipids. Quaternary ammonium disinfectants, commonly used in health-care and food-service industries, attack protein and lipid structures, thwarting the pathogen’s typical mode of infection. Bleach and other potent oxidizers swiftly break down a virus’s essential components.”
Note that alcohol-based refers to isopropyl alcohol.
So, perhaps follow your own snarky advice, and look into the matter prior to taking a swipe at another poster.
“Yes, the alcohol in wine is ethanol, but for people at home, isopropyl alcohol and bleach are their available disinfectants.” -Karen
Or booze, if the ethanol content is high enough.
https://www.thedailymeal.com/151-and-highest-proof-liquor
Anonymous says:March 16, 2020 at 2:18 PM
Isopropyl alcohol (isopropanol) works, too, according to both the WHO and CDC:
https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/cant-find-hand-sanitizer-the-world-health-organization-has-a-recipe-to-make-your-own
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/infection-control/hcp-hand-sanitizer.html
“Hand washing mechanically removes pathogens, while laboratory data demonstrate that 60% ethanol and 70% isopropanol, the active ingredients in CDC-recommended alcohol-based hand sanitizers, inactivates viruses that are genetically related to, and with similar physical properties as, the 2019-nCoV.”
60% ethanol (at least) to kill covid-19
isospropyl is toxic, so better to use ethanol to clean cups in between sips
Shhhh, don’t discourage Karen.
Karen, disregard @ 4:26 PM
Drink all of the isopropyl you can get your gross Lutheran hands on
True, but as you said, it would have to be high proof. The Sacramental wine is not.
mj:
“The “faithful” do not refer to the Body & Blood of Christ as “gross”. It isn’t a worry for “faithful” Catholics anymore than sitting on a pew, touching a church door or exchanging the sign of peace as being “gross”.
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I called it “gross” to drink from the same cup only because it is gross – dangerous, too. Seems a lot of Catholics agree with me that it’s dangerous:
https://www.wbtv.com/2020/03/03/churches-us-are-banning-drinking-communion-wine-sign-peace-stop-spread-coronavirus/
Oh and here’s a newsflash for you: Post- consecration that altar wine never turns into real, actual honest-to-goodness human blood. I’ve poured it both before and after the ceonsecration and it’s exactly the same stuff. I’ve bled a time or two and the wine tastes nothing like that unmistakable iron taste after some meathead has just busted your mouth with a forearm under your helmet’s facemask. Believe what you want to believe but until I get a bona fide lab analysis, I’m going with my common sense of taste and sight.
I’m going with my common sense of taste and sight.
No one disputes that you rule your life by taste & sight
A man with humility would be ashamed and look inwardly to correct his contumacious sin. You, OTOH, continue to show readers what the pride looks like. You wear it well
Michael Esposito: (no kin)
“No one disputes that you rule your life by taste & sight
A man with humility would be ashamed and look inwardly to correct his contumacious sin. You, OTOH, continue to show readers what the pride looks like. You wear it well.”
***************************
Thanks, Mike. Like Martin Luther, I don’t question what is plain for all to see. Tell me, do you actually believe -as the Roman Church does- that after the performance of a few priestly propitiations a wheat cracker changes constituently into the molecules of human flesh and that altar wine changes into actual, real human blood? No beating around the proverbial burning bush or no allegorical arguments. The real thing? Just yes or no. if you hesitate even for an instant you prove my position.
No one disputes that you rule your life by your superstitions but a true rational person would show readers that isn’t all he does.
Crickets? That’s what I thought, Michael. You don’t buy it either but are petrified to say it. That’s not humility, just fear.
i used to always take the cup but now im an absentee altogether. i guess i have left the church to the saints of which I am clearly not one
these days im more focused on Dasein
My faith is not that strong sadly. We are called to testify to the Truth.
Pastor Kenneth Copeland heals COVID-19 through TV
Kenneth Copeland does not teach & preach Christianity. He is part of the Word Faith movement & they R Gnostics at best. In other words heretics. They R outside the basic teachings of Christ.
Not surprising from followers of a religion that practices virtual cannibalism in the first place.
The Roman Catholic church did not offer the cup to the congregation until Vatican ll.
And of course, no one is putting a gun to the Aussies’ heads…….they can be adults and opt to skip the cup.
Absolutely I agree especially about Vatican II. But I also don’t see the difference between going to the store or going to Mass. I refuse to abandon God for my convenience, or the possibility I might get sick.
I go Latin independent SSPX Mass which has NOT been cancelled.
This is an Orthodox Church.
As is, Byzantine-rite Catholic Churches generally do not offer the cup, though I think it can be offered in select circumstances.
Absurd……Greek and Syrian Orthodox are basically Catholic, except the priests can marry, right? And they use a different calendar.
There’s always the medieval tradition of ocular communion…
Technically, if it weren’t all nonsense, the Holy Cup really couldn’t carry disease.
The only nonsense here is your post Zippy.
Zippy – is that your idea of christian brotherhood?
Religion is a disease.
Nature doesn’t care about costumes or pageantry or talking to oneself.
“What the Christian sees as important, the world looks at with contempt, and what the world considers important, the Christian considers utterly meaningless.”-Unknown
“I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen. Not only because I see it, but because I see everything by it.”-C S Lewis
Jesus practiced Judaism. He was NEVER a Christian. In fact, he never set foot in a Christian church.
Of course Nature cares about costumes and pageantry. As one example; that’s why male birds are so colorful and adorned with crests. It assures the continuation of the species through sexual selection. Educate yourself in something besides pseudo-science before blathering.
Since the wine has alcohol in it, it would be at least partially self-purifying,
I think alcohol has to be fairly pure to function as a disinfectant and it doesn’t work contra many classes of virus.
In the current case, you need 60% alcohol / 120 proof.
I understand the Greek churches position, since my nationality and Christian beliefs are similar and a little older than the Greek Church.
But, I agree not to drink the wine based on my extensive knowledge of COVID-19 and the biotech and pandemic modeling.