House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has been attacking Republicans members as traitors in a continuation of the reckless rhetoric from the last four years on both sides. Despite a desire for greater unity from voters, Pelosi has sought to capitalize on rather than close those divisions while other Democrats are calling for blacklists and retaliatory measures. The Speaker has now doubled down on these attacks by claiming that the need to increase security is due in no small degree to the “enemy within” in reference to the Republican ranks. As with her prior conduct as Speaker, Pelosi continues to refuse to recognize any obligation to the institution in seeking consensus and reconciliation.
Pelosi declared on Thursday that there is an obvious need for a “supplemental [budget] for more security for members when the enemy is within the House of Representatives — a threat that members are concerned about in addition to what is happening outside.”
Such language obviously thrills many who want to portray any opposing voices as traitors and seditionists. It has been rhetoric building for years as the more leaders and academics engage in the politics of personal destruction. The idea is to avoid responding to actual positions by labeling the opposition as actual traitors, criminals, and threats. It is the very signature of this age of rage in American politics.
The members are legitimately debating the issue of members carrying permitted weapons in Congress or on the House floor. Pelosi made direct reference to one such member. There has also been criticism of a member, Rep. Greene, for her inflammatory statements on social media. Far enough. Those issues can be addressed and Republicans have denounced Rep. Greene. However, even when confronted by reckless accusations against a member who was reportedly showing her own family around the Congress, Pelosi has doubled down on the rhetoric of treason in reference to Republicans generally. It precisely the type of rhetoric that many of us condemned when used by former President Donald Trump.
I have commended President Biden for his statements about the need to end the language of division and personal recrimination. Recently, he repeated that call and said that politicians need to “eliminate the vitriol” and stop that “the ad hominem attacks on one another.” He objected to people who “make anything that you disagree with about the other person’s personality, or their lack of integrity, or they’re not decent legislators, and the like. So we have to get rid of that.”
I like the demeanor of Biden as president. However, as the President was making those comments, Speaker Pelosi was engaging in the very vitriolic language that he condemned. It will not end unless Biden calls out people in his own party and demands a lowering of such rhetoric. His words continue to be drowned out by the words of his own party’s leadership.
Will you look:
“House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has been attacking Republicans members as traitors”…
Yes, it is true that both sides have declared that the other will destroy America. The rhetoric has been very heated.
But what is also true is that conservatives fight for free speech, including for those with whom they disagree. The Democrat Party and the Left in general oppose free speech. (See the censorship of conservatives on college campuses across the US, in Youtube, Facebook, Twitter, the attacks on Parler, The New Internet, etc.).
What is also true is that Republicans politicians do not coordinate with Big Tech to censor opponents. Democrats do.
Conservatives seek to improve jobs in the private sector and encourage business growth. Democrat policies destroy jobs in the private sector (see CA), and increase jobs in government bureaucracy, which is paid for by taxpayers.
Conservatives seek to make all immigration go through legal channels, at rates which our infrastructure and environment can support, while Democrats seek open borders because the offspring of illegal immigrants that are born here vote Democrat. Don’t you dare deny it. Democrats are on record opposing holding illegal aliens at the border, and they even oppose decorations that are court ordered after the immigration court process. If you can’t even deport someone legally, then you’re open borders. Sanctuary cities even protect violent felons from deportation. While every Democrat I know is offended at the very suggestion they are for open borders, I can’t get any of them to admit a single instance where they would actually support ICE deporting anyone.
Conservatives seek to contain Iran. Democrats seek to return to the Iran nuclear deal, which allowed uranium enrichment and poured cash into a terrorist nation that changes “Death to America! Death to Israel!” in its schools.
Conservatives support the only Westernized nation in the Middle East, Israel, while Democrats appear to support terrorists in their efforts to destroy Israel, such as the BDS movement.
Conservatives condemn all the violence, from the breaking into the Capitol, to CHOP, and all the BLM/Antifa riots. Democrats support BLM and Antifa riots as the “language of the unheard” and storming the Senate offices during the Kavanaugh hearing as fighting against a Handmaid’s Tale dystopia, but demand all conservatives be viewed as terrorists because one single group engaged in unlawful behavior in the Capitol one single time.
Conservatives are for law and order. Democrats encouraged anti police prejudice that has led to the assault of dozens of police officers and a surge in violent crime, including murder, in cities where police have pulled back or been defunded. Democrats in CA dump thousands of inmates out of prisons, and have made shoplifting under $950 just a misdemeanor. Gascon, the new Democrat DA of Los Angeles County, CA, will no longer prosecute trespassing, and a score of other crimes. If you’re a drug addict and/or homeless, the law does not apply to you. Your addiction will now be used as a reason to be excused from prosecution of a list of crimes.
It’s like the Democrat Party has gotten to the point that it can’t even make a good choice 50% of the time.
This is why conservatives believe that the Left will destroy individual freedom and impoverish the US. This is why we are concerned that the Democrats won’t stop until they usher in yet another abusive Leftist dictatorship.
I have a question about something that seems easily proved or disproved. It has been alleged that prior to January 6th, Republican congressmen or their staffs gaves tours to some of the very same people that led the insurrection and basically showed them where to go in a building said to hard to navigate. They did find their way to places like the Speaker’s office that again is supposed to be hard to find.
By now, given the number of cameras all over the building. You’d think there would be either irrefutable visual evidence of said tours or a complete denial based on a review of the tapes/logs/videos. We seem to have neither. This is one rumour that could have been confirmed or dispelled.
I agree, Enigma, that the whole mess should be properly sorted out. But, I am rather cynical about the whole thing and about both parties.
Why would they want to dispel rumors? Cui bono? 🙁
In this case, it’s good propaganda for Democrats to use against Republicans which Republicans should want to dispel. If true, there are some people that ought to be criminally charged and removed as they remain a threat.
No it is not good propoganda – this nonsense only plays to their own base.
Further they are not trusted. and they are behaving paranoid.
We now have people like AOC and most of the media talking about cults of 75M people and brainwashing and re-educating people.
At a time when many people are questioning democrats ties to China – democrats should NOT be behaving like little maoists.
Doen;t china claim Falung gon is a cult ? that the Uighur are domestic terrorists and must be reeducated ?
John say, the mobs of Trump supporters at his rallies do show a cult mentality. This is quite obvious. After trump supporters literally forced their way into the Capitol chanting death threats and holding lawmakers hostage and killing a police officer, its not irrational for the speaker to be concerned about further violence. Violence that some new members of Congress encouraged and supported when they were part of that group before getting elected.
Two members specifically have threatened executions of other members and still believe in the conspiracy theories that are plainly insane.
It’s funny how quickly republicans forget about the mob they so reluctantly condemned after president refused to call it off until he was forced to.
Pelosi’s concerns are valid. Zealots are unpredictable and just because they are no longer having rallies doesn’t mean they have stopped their violent beliefs.
and killing a police officer,
1. Where is Ofc. Sicknick’s autopsy report?
2. Where is the security cam video which shows Ofc. Sicknick receiving any blows to any part of his body? (And, keep in mind, the texts he sent his family mentioned being hit with pepper spray, not with any solid object).
Take home message: Absurdist Art is concerned enough about the optics involved he’s endeavored to doctor the autopsy report.
Elvis Bug
I beleive there is video of sicknick in violent confrontation with protestors.
Purportedly (and properly) the Capital Police’s orders were to delay but not to engage.
Sicknick and his crew violated that order.
Aside from the order – he needed to retreat and failed to do so.
My recollection is that video shows sicknick being drug out of the capital.
The same video shows him being helped by protestors.
I do not know what actually happened to him.
If as is claimed a protestor hit him in the head with a fire extinguisher – that protestor should be prosecuted.
I have not yet heard of a protestor being charged with Sicknick’s death. But maybe I missed something.
I do not know about autopsey’s – neither do you.
Though I am wondering about the number of suicides among the capital police.
I do not know how to understand that.
Maybe they feel guilty.
You certainly should.
Art Deco x4,
Witnesses including Capitol police and videotape show the police officer being struck repeatedly by a trump supporter with a fire extinguisher. He died of his injuries.
Deco, if you’re going to be asking for specifics why don’t you provide the specific time abc context of when the officer sent his texts? Was he pepper sprayed before or after being bludgeoned by with a fire extinguisher? Please provide us with the specifics of your claim.
Witnesses including Capitol police and videotape show the police officer being struck repeatedly by a trump supporter with a fire extinguisher. He died of his injuries.
No it did not. There is a security camera video tape of a man throwing a fire extinguisher (1x), but it’s not clear who it hit, much less that the person it hit suffered any injury.
why don’t you provide the specific time abc context of when the officer sent his texts?
He sent them in the division office, after the imbroglio was over.
The video I have seen does not show that – do you have a link ?
I have seen video of confrontations between Sicknick and protestors. But no fire extinguisher.
I have only heard reports of that.
Regardless, this is not something it would be wise for anyone to plant their feet over.
Whatever the truth is we will likely know.
Someone will be charged – or they will not.
Why is Art obligated to prove anything ?
The burden of proof will be on the capital police.
Not Art, not you, not whoever they charge – if anyone.
what you call a cult is simply like minded people who act cooperatively
excuse me we are busy crushing hedge fund short positions now
you guys keep on parsing news from 2 weeks ago. things are moving fast and you’re stuck in the mud
Sal Sar
I am not so sure that the Reditt operation is clearly political.
There are accusations that it is both left and right.
It is not like there is anyone who truly likes hedge funds.
Nor is it clear who if anyone is the “hero” in this story.
The rediter’s are doing the same thing as the hedge funds.
And from the looks of things there are going to be alot of losers.
Regardless, the government should stay out of this.
As should investors that can not afford to lose alot of money.
75M people is not a cult – get over yourself.
Actually no!
Keep it up – keep calling half the country cult members who need to be deprogramed and re-educated.
You created that huge opposition by calling everyone you disagreed with a racist homophobic hateful hating hater,
Pile on – call half the country a cult.
Create Green Zones in the capital and have the military occupy parts of the country.
Keep it up and you will not be able to win the election for dog catcher in 2022.
Yup Trump supporters forced their way into a public building that belongs to the people and is supposed to be open when congress is in session.
So which congressmen was held hostage ?
The only person shot was murdered by the capital police.
Of course it is rational for the speaker to be worried about violence – that is what happens when elections are not trusted – governmet legitimacy is lost.
Those on the left like yourself do not seem to get it – Lie cheat and steal, hide what you are doing, behave lawlessly and people do not trust you.
Trust in government – is the lowest it has ever been.
Trust in media – the lowest it has ever been.
When there is not trust in government violence is likely.
You broke it, you own it.
The violence by Antifa – it is your fault – you condoned it.
What little actual violence there is from the right – your fault – you went lawless what did you expect of people ?
“Violence that some new members of Congress encouraged and supported when they were part of that group before getting elected.’
They did – then you will be able to cite instances where they did so – remarks that are more egregious than those quoted from pelosi, Schmuer, Waters ….
There is no obligation for journalists like Turley to give the left and right equal time.
There is a duty for ALL OF US to apply whatever standards we have blind to our politics.
Neither Trump’s remarks nor those of freshman republicans come close to the norms that democrats breach all the time.
Regardless, you can impeach Trump for the remarks he made before the capital protest.
But if only if you impeach every single democrat in the federal govenrment who has made similar or worse remarks.
That would be ALL OF THEM.
Equal consequences for equal offenses.
“Two members specifically have threatened executions of other members”
Then DOJ can charge them with terroristic threats and incitement to violence.
Thus far I have not heard of ANYONE being cited for EITHER.
It is reasonable to presume that if there are no charges matching your claims,
there are no actions matching your claims.
But you are free to try to prove them.
“still believe in the conspiracy theories that are plainly insane.”
Then what are you doing here – you have tried to sell conspiracy theories that are plainly insane.
What little I know about Qanon is that it is inconsequential to those who peddled the collusion delusion. Or that investigating the Biden conduct in the Ukraine was an impeachable offense, or that the allegations against the Biden’s are “russian disinformation”
Once again “Have you no shame ?”
According to Wikipedia the core to Qanon is that there is a globalist elite cliche of peodphiles many in government that is out to get Trump.
That is not nearly as crazy as the collusion delusion.
21% of people beleive epstein committed suicide.
52% think he was murdered and the rest are undecided.
If that is a conspiracy theory – then an awful lot of democrats are buying.
I do not know that Epstein was mudered.
I do know that LOTS of people – many on the left are happy he is dead.
I do not know that Bill Clinton is a peodofile. But he certainly is a perv, and I would not leave my daughter alone with him.
I am not interested in a debate over whether there is a global elite clique of Peodophiles Trump is at war with.
But I will be happy to thrash you over any delusion that is some serious threat to the country.
And again 9/11 Truthers started from THE LEFT.
Even Birther’s started FROM THE LEFT – it was started by Clinton Surogate Blumenstein.
“it’s funny how quickly republicans forget about the mob”
I do not forget them. Out side the few who did more than force their way into a building that should have been opened to the public and demanded that our representatives deny confirmation to a lawless election – I support the rest.
I do not agree with the 2018 Kavanaugh protestors – but I support their right to protest. Including verbally coercing congressmen.
I do not agree with the 2011 Union protestors who shutdown the WI legislature for 3 weeks – but I support their right to protest.
I would have no problem with the Capital Police extending a perimeter arround the capital and only allowing those in who were not armed, as well as limiting numbers to a couple of thousand at a time (the capital is a BIG Building.
But congress and the federal government could not legitimate prohibit the protests. An they can not do so NOW.
“Pelosi’s concerns are valid.”
Absolutely – democrats botched the election and as a consequence they have a government that does not have much trust.
She should be afraid. And locking down the capital is pretty much what you would expect from an illegitimate government fearful of the people.
“Zealots are unpredictable and just because they are no longer having rallies doesn’t mean they have stopped their violent beliefs.”
All correct, So you should not have made so many zealots.
Regardless, I spend alot of time discussing FORCE and its justification here.
When government is lawless – violence is justified.
When government is untrustworthy – violence is likely.
Violence is NOT inherently good or evil.
We send soldiers to war – to kill people.
The police enforce our laws, sometimes that is violent. Sometimes that is deadly.
Violence against lawless government can be justified – actually read the declaration of independence.
That is quite litterally the purpose of the document – to justify violence against a lawless government.
Most violence is bad, and we all want to minimize violence.
But sometimes it is necescary.
Was the violence at the capital justified ?
Breaking in to the capital when it was locked down while congress was in session, for the purpose of protesting, and petitioning government is either justified or pretty damn close.
Stealing things and ransacking the place is not.
There are other actions that were not justified – but they are very small in number. Probably 99% of the protestors were justified in their actions.
And they would be justified should they do the same tomorow.
I hope they do not. I think that democrats will self immolate.
They are doing a pretty good job so far.
I think there are still non-violent options left.
But I do not rule out circumstances getting to the point where people could march on the capital, shut it down and demand new lawful elections. And if they were resisted and violence was required to accomplish that purpose – they would be justified.
I would strongly suggest reading pre-revolutionary history.
Because you are looking to repeat it.
The American Revolution had the strong support of about 17% or people.
Enigma, you’re right. Easily disproven or proven.
The photograph in question was actually from 2019:
““This is a photo that Member of Congress Lauren Boebert posted on her Instagram page on Jan 5. This is the group she then took on a guided tour of the Capitol after this photo was taken. These people participated in the insurrection the following day. At least one has been charged,” he wrote in the now-deleted post.
The problem is that the photograph is from 2019. Sherrill also hasn’t said if she was referencing to Boebert as well. So, thus far, this appears to be ‘the evidence’ regarding this accusation—and it’s totally false.”
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2021/01/13/yeah-thats-not-evidence-of-gop-members-giving-recon-tours-before-capitol-building-storming-n2583075
Once again, instead of claiming that Republican Congressmen aided and abetted people to storm the Capitol (which would be strange because a few of them were identified as Antifa), and then hoping to get evidence of it, they should have investigated first. Only when we have all the facts should anyone who participated be held accountable.
Likewise, Democrats should be held accountable for bailing looters and rioters out of jail, and for telling people to “go out, make a crowd, and make sure they know they aren’t welcome anywhere anymore.”
Do the same rules apply to everyone, or is there a Democrat ruling class? Because it sure seems like we’re dealing with two very different set of rules. Conservatives – all riots and assaults on law enforcement are wrong. Democrats – riots by BLM and Antifa are the language of the unheard or they’re just fighting “fascism”. Looting is “reparations.” Calling in the National Guard to protect federal buildings is Fascist. Burning a police precinct and seizing city blocks of CHOP is a Summer of Love. It’s a mostly peaceful protest. 4 years of questioning election integrity, Trump is not their president, he cheated, he stole the election, he’s working for Russia, all that rhetoric is a civic duty. One tiny group of a mostly peaceful Republican rally storms the capitol, and it’s sedition. Questioning election integrity is sedition. 75 million conservatives are white supremacist terrorists. Calling in the National Guard and stationing them in the Capitol for weeks is patriotic. Oh, and censoring conservatives across all Social Media is wonderful.
You know, Enigma, I enjoy talking to you on the site. I usually like to hear your perspective. But I can’t understand why you, and every Democrat that I know personally, absolutely refuses to acknowledge the double standard here. They refuse to admit to the censorship, the anti-free speech, the fact that it’s wrong to keep calling conservatives white supremacists. Meanwhile, conservatives roundly condemned those who breached the capitol and call for the full power of the law to apply to them.
What would that be like, if Democrats acted the same?
So, thus far, this appears to be ‘the evidence’ regarding this accusation—and it’s totally false. Maybe. Just maybe the Democrats aren’t interested in unity at all, right? Of course, they’re not. And for an incident where mostly everyone agrees was wrong and a fiasco, we have Democrats hurling inside job conspiracy theories.
I’d rather have an official statement from someone who reviewed the logs and tapes and can rule it out rather than someone saying one picture is that doesn’t show something is proof it didn’t happen. I’ll still wait for more proof before drawing a conclusion.
As far as censorship, I don’t consider the First Amendment (which doesn’t apply here) to allow lies and inflamatory speech. If the majority of blocked and removed posts were from Republicans. It wasn’t because they were conservative, it was because they were lies.
I don’t recall ever having seen or heard of anyone calling conservatives racists. I hear racists being called racists while allying themselves with Republicans and welcomed like the apparently “fine people” they are. I don’t equate conservatives with Republicans either because they haven’t stood up for traditional conservative values during the past four years. Republicans have defended the presence of white nationalists in the White House (Steve Bannon and Stephen Miller), defender racist immigration policies, engaged in voter suppression of minorities. Bonus Question: What to Atlanta, Detroit, and Philadelphia have in common? There are over 100 new proposals in Republican-controlled states attempting to suppress votes in the next election. Some Trump supporters in the riot carried confederate flags. The Trump administration suppressed a report for two years naming domestic terrorists, primarily aligned with white supremacists as the leading threat against our nation. Please differentiate between conservatives, I do. And if you don’t want to be lumped in with racists, try rejecting them instead of embracing them. That’s a collective you, not you personally.
Footnote: For those who claim voter suppression doesn’t exist despite all the evidence. That’s willful ignorance.
Footnote: For those who claim voter suppression doesn’t exist despite all the evidence. That’s willful ignorance.
Again, there’s your imagination and there’s the world we live in.
Are you saying it doesn’t exist? That would be mu opinion if so, and I’d be right.
It doesn’t exist. Vote fraud does exist.
How can I say that something that you have not made clear exists or does not ?
Both parties work hard during campaigns to persuade their own voters to vote and their opponents voters to stay home.
Persuasion is legal. It is also “voter supression”.
Nearly every state has laws restricting the priviledge of voting for Fellons.
These are mostly ancient laws. They were not “partisan” at the time they were passed.
If you wish to change them – go ahead.
The federal government – and numerous court cases require states to regularly purge their voter registration databases.
Frankly, it is high time we get rid of voter registration entirely. The model Voter ID law requirements are sufficient to prevent ineligible people from voting. Voter registration has become a vehicle FOR fraud. Lets just get rid of it. The problem is that disempowers the political parties BOTH. Voter registration does not matter for the general election – but it matters alot for primaries.
This too is solveable. Get the government OUT of primary elections. They are the business of the parties.
Voter ID laws are “voter supression” – they prevent people who can not legally vote from voting. I have no problem with that.
Ballot harvesting laws are “voter supression” – I have no problems with those either.
Supressing illegal votes or fraudulent election tactics is “voter supression” and it is a good thing.
I want fraudulent votes suppressed – don’t you ?
Jon say, reducing the number of polling stations prior to an election is voter suppression. Limiting the time to vote is also a form of voter suppression.
Constantly adding “measures” to ensure voting integrity despite constant proof that claims of massive voter fraud and illegal voters doesn’t exist. Lack of evidence is not evidence of voter fraud.
How is voter registration a vehicle for fraud? Are you suggesting anyone with an ID be eligible to vote?
Constantly adding “measures” to ensure voting integrity despite constant proof that claims of massive voter fraud and illegal voters doesn’t exist. Lack of evidence is not evidence of voter fraud.
The Democratic Party is on the warpath against what was ordinary ballot security when I was involved in local politics in New York, questioned by no one.
Art Decox4, “ordinary” ballot security has already been established multiple times. There is no mass fraud occurring. Even Trump’s own voter fraud commission found no proof of their own claims. This was run by Kris Kobach himself.
Art Decox4, “ordinary” ballot security has already been established multiple times.
It hasn’t.
There is no mass fraud occurring.
1,100 sworn affidavits say you’re wrong.
I beleive the number of affadavits is near 50,000 now.
“Even Trump’s own voter fraud commission found no proof . . .”
A commission guided by those who provide voting machines and run the elections (various secretaries of state). And those insiders came to that conclusion a mere *5 weeks* after the election.
It takes longer than that to indict a ham sandwich.
You want to trust the election results – that is simple to accomplish.
Have the National guard hand count the paper ballots, and Live Stream the process. So that anyone who wishes can watch every ballot being counted – and submit objections.
And separately have them validate the mailin ballot envelopes – again live streamed.
Or have the NG scan every ballot and every envelope and put them online and crowd source the detection of fraudulent ballots and erroneous counts.
It is not actually that hard to do an election right.
Which is why one woders why so much effort is made to do them wrong – and both parties are complicit in this.
Kobach was talking about cyber security NOT fraud.
No Svelaz – it has not. First the actual record of fraud is far greater than you beleive.
Those on the left pretend that absence of convictions for voter fraud is the same as the absence of evidence of voter fraud.
We KNOW that hundreds occasionally thousands of fraudulent votes are cast in every state in every election.
And that is with inperson elections. With mailin it is atleast a factor of 10 and probably a factor of 100 higher.
There is a huge difference between convicting a specific person of voter fraud and proving lots of fraud.
Lets assume that after an election you are able to determine from voter registration and voting rolls that a person who does not exist or is dead voted. You know that a fraudulent vote was cast. But you have no idea who cast it. This is the reason that voter ID requires in person photo verification at the poll. Otherwise fraud is easy and the only way you get caught is if you confess.
Finally the standard is not people must proof that massive fraud occured.
The standard is government must ALWAYS prove that massive fraud CAN NOT OCCUR.
It is the government that must earn the trust of people. Not the other way arround.
We do not have sufficient election fraud protection in in person elections.
We are not even close with mailin elections. There are about half a dozen ways that mailin elections significantly increase fraud and there is no means to secure them.
“Jon say, reducing the number of polling stations prior to an election is voter suppression.”
I do not care about the number of “polling stations”. I care about the number of precints and the scale of counting operations.
All congressional districts should have the same number of voters, all precincts should have the same number of voters, all precincts should do their own counting.
“Limiting the time to vote is also a form of voter suppression.”
That is a ludicrously stupid statement that easily fails reductio ad absurdem.
What we should have a year ? Two years to vote ?
The period for voting MUST be SHORT. The greater the time available for voting the greater the oportunity for Fraud – another independent fraud problem with mailin elections.
Viring must be completed in a short fixed time period everywhere. and counting must be completed in a short fixed time period with results being announced nearly simultaeously everywhere.
Every other arrangement fosters fraud.
This is real world data on how to reduce election fraud – The US just pays no attention to it.
Much of the developed world does elections better than the US.
There are third world countries that do better.
Regardless, time limits for voting are NOT voter supression.
As is typical – you, they left pretend every effort to diminish fraud is supression.
“Constantly adding “measures” to ensure voting integrity despite constant proof that claims of massive voter fraud and illegal voters
doesn’t exist. Lack of evidence is not evidence of voter fraud.”
There is plenty of evidence of Voter Fraud. What there is not, is plenty of convictions – because while it is easy to prove that fraud occured it is hard to convict someone of it without a confession. It is especially hard because our elections are condicted to prevent having the evidence to convict someone.
Finally – the actual frequency of voter fraud is principly important with respect to determining who won an election.
It has NOTHING to do with how trustworthy it is.
The burden of proof to change an election outcome is on the challenger.
BUT The burden of proof that elections can be trusted is on the government and owed to the people.
It is not good enough to assume that elections have little fraud. It is not even good enough to have little evidence of fraud.
Elections must be conducted so that there is NO POSSIBLITY of significant fraud.
In fact Elections must be conducted so that people perceive there is no possibility of significant fraud.
In a conflict between what you call “voter supression” and election transparency and trust – the requirements for Trust and transparency MUST always win.
What we have seen the past several months is just part of the reason for that.
While those individuals that did violence to others are personally and criminally responsible for their actions,
The ultimate responsibility for the capital protests, and the anxiety of the nation and the conflict lies with those who conducted the election lawlessly – NO ONE ELSE.
Read the declaration of independence – when there is not sufficient trust in government – violence is justifiable.
Those who undermined the trust in the election bear the responsibility.
And to be clear – that is NOT those who challeneged the election. It is those who conducted it lawlessly, and then hid behind the robes of the courts rather than letting the sunlight in.
While there is absolutely nothing that government could possibly do to convince a tiny portion of die hard trump supporters.
the vast majority of people would have accepted the results had they been subject to sufficient scrutiny and still reflected the same outcome.
“How is voter registration a vehicle for fraud?”
Because outside of Voter ID states – or in Voter ID states with relaxed mailin voting, any name on the voter registration list can vote.
And there are about 38M names on voter registration rolls accross the country that are dead, invalid, do not exist, do not live in that state or are duplicates. Absent voter ID anyone can vote as those “people”. With mailin ballots – anyone can vote as those people.
“Are you suggesting anyone with an ID be eligible to vote?” Not just any ID. It must be government issued photo ID, it must meet the real ID requirements, and it must be current and have an address in the precinct.
But drivers licenses, State photo ID, passports, Passport cards all meet that criteria.
I have no problem with completely eliminating Voter Registration in return for in person verification of Voter ID.
But you can not verify Voter ID by mail.
I do not even care about signature matching – so long as a government issued photo ID is verified in person.
Peoples signatures do change. But the ID verification must be inperson and the photo must be checked.
I have no problem suppressing fraudulent votes, I do have a problem with the suppression of legitimate voters. The Republican Partymainly represents a group that is dwindling demographically and the only way they can win elections in many areas including nationally is via voter suppression, gerrymandering, redistricting, and lying.
+10
Elvis Bug
Well you got the Democrat/media “narrative” down pat. The facts and truth suggest something else entirely.
I suspect the “facts” you’re relying on are something else entirely.
Prove what you say is “fact.”
also…the 2020 election *was* stolen. everyone in the know, knows it. prove me wrong.
I strongly suspect that is true.
But that is not the core problem.
The first is that the election was lawless.
That is a huge problem.
It is not possible to trust government if it chooses not to follow its own law and constitution.
It is worse when the courts bless this.
Every officeholder in government swears to uphold the law and constitution. In states that includes state constitutions and state laws.
Failure to do so is an actually impeachable offense.
I think that atleast some of the evidence of large scale fraud is pretty compelling.
Regardless it is far over the threshold that requires investigation.
I would also note that whether it has been proven that large scale fraud occured,
it has absolutely been proven that large scale fraud is possible.
I have learned enough about mailin voting and how the votes are counted that for very little cost and with no chance of being caught I could innundate any of these 6 cities with fraudulent ballots. And I could do so such that while they could be certain that Fraud occured – they could not distinguish legitimate ballots from fraudulent ones.
The mere possibility of large scale fraud like that is more than sufficient to condemn the entire election
It is ALWAYS governments burden to conduct elections lawfully and transperently, and such that fraud that could alter the outcume was not possible.
40,000 votes in 3 states tipped this election. Numerous races tipped on a few hundred or less votes. Atleast one house seat on 25 votes.
That is how strong anti-fraud measures must be.
You would be more convincing if you argued the facts rather than “suspected something”
Thyere are no facts on the side of those who say the election was rigged and Trump won. They had the opportunity to present them to courts and were too embarrassed to make legal claims based on the theories Trump supporters willingly accept from the Internet. The truth is, there are no facts that will be accepted as truth.
“There are no facts on the side of those who say the election was rigged and Trump won. ”
That is a ludicrously stupid claim.
There are plenty of facts.
“They had the opportunity to present them to courts”
False. there is absolutely no way to have a challenge on the merits with discovery and questioning of wirnesses in the short time before elections are certified.
The arguments made by Trump’s team in court were to get TRO’s to stop certification.
The legal burdern to get a TRO is quite high – you essentially have to prove you will win – without discovery or witnesses, and even that is not sufficient. While many of the court decisions are just plain wrong. Right or wrong the cases were not on the merits.
I would note there ARE many cases that are still going forward. There is a reason the democrats are terrified. There is a reason that there is mass censorship, and there is a reason that democrats are sending the message that conservative protests will not be tolerated.
All that is needed right now is a single case anyway to reach a decision favorable to trump and this country is a powderkeg that could go off.
Conservative will be out protesting – and this time they may well bring their guns.
Antifa will almost certainly be out protesting.
The big outstanding cases that are still opened are Antrim County. Maricopa County and Fulton County.
Antrim county appears to have a judge favorable to Trump’s claims, and there has already been substantial errors found in Antrim county.
Maricopa country is vigourously resisting a hand recount that was ordered and has ignored subpeona’s.
The Fulton country case has been languishing in the courts – a Judge must be assigned that is not tied to Fulton county and the case must be heard outside of Fulton county by GA law. The GA Supreme court is trying to slow the case as much as possible.
Both Fulton County and Antrim county specifically relate to the Dominion issue. On Antrim county several DVS machines have been forensically examined and the findings were bad enough that the court has ordered all machines to be checked.
There is post election evidence of tampering – I beleive that has also been found in AZ.
One finding – that was confirmed in Fulton county because Fulton county admitted it was that the error rate for DVS Scan/count machines is over 66%. Remember that in 2000 in FL the error rate for punched card ballots was about 3%. That means that 97% of ballots were machine counted and no one challenged them and all the Bush/Gore fighting was over the adjudication of 3% of ballots.
In Antrim County and in Fulton county – and probably everywhere that DVS systems are used 2/3+ of all ballots were send to adjudication.
Further Covid was used in all these places to prevent any oversite of the evaluation of the adjudicated ballots.
This is a gargantuan problem. An hand audit of the real paper ballots is eventually going to occur in many places.
“The truth is, there are no facts that will be accepted as truth.”
Any yet the majority of people beleive there was significant fraud in this election,
and a plurality beleive the election was stolen.
”
Conservative will be out protesting – and this time they may well bring their guns.”
Not that I equate the maniacs that stormed the capital with conservatives, But they brought their guns, and pipe bombs, and Molotov cocktails, last time.
There was a small number of Guns – the only person shot was by capital police.
No Pipe bombs were set off, and the claim is the pipe bombs were placed before and we do not know by whom.
I still have seen no evidence of molotv cocktails. None were used.
Do you think the National Guard is prepared to fire on 1000 armed Protestors ?
I do not know. You do not either. Nor does Biden.
Regardless just an armed confrontation would be a disaster.
If the NG backed down – it is likely the government would fall.
If they fired first and killed hundreds of protestors – the government might fall.
Nor does this change with Police. Frankly most of the police are near certain to back down faced by armed conservative protestors.
One of the reason that social media has shut down conservatives and that DOJ/FBI have been tasked to go after them is that Democrats MUST stop an armed protest before it happens.
Lets take one of the easy cases – something we have sort of seen before.
The house prepares to vote on some stupid new draconian gun control measure.
Virginina Militias announce they are occupying the capital to stop any vote – they have done something similar in Virginia.
This is going to be an ARMED but otherwise non-violent protest.
What are you going to do ?
Do you really think you have a good way out ?
Democrats are already very scared that the military. national guard and police will not be there for them if the need them.
”
Do you think the National Guard is prepared to fire on 1000 armed Protestors ?”
If it was Black Lives Matter, what do you think?
BLM and Antifa rioted all summer. There are no instances of law enforcement of any kind firing on protestors.
The one instance in which a protestor was shot – was by a Guardsmen and it was will the protestor was shooting at police.
So No I do not think that the NG or Police would fire on BLM or even Antifa.
What would be fundimentally different is that they would be forced to either Fire or back down against an armed millitia.
Police and NG have techniques short of deadly force to deal with Rocks and molitov cocktails, ….
British Rule in India was dealt a fatal blow when the british opened fire on Indian protestors.
Regardless, it is precisely this conflict that democrats are currently deathly affraid of.
I do not actually think we are there yet. But Democrats are driving that way at high speed and under the delusion that greater use of force will make that less likely.
They might be right – maybe we are int he midst of a stalinist purge of dissent.
It sure sounds that way.
“The truth is, there are no facts that will be accepted as truth.”
Any yet the majority of people beleive there was significant fraud in this election,
and a plurality beleive the election was stolen.
You are not right about the facts – but ultimately it does not matter.
You failed at the most important part of an election – gaining the consent of the governed.
The people do not beleive this government is legitimate. More than 60% do not trust government – the highest ever.
You had an opportunity to try to fix that – you refused.
“Any yet the majority of people beleive there was significant fraud in this election,
and a plurality beleive the election was stolen.”
If your definition of majority is more than half, you’re dead wrong. That’s an example of repeating something you heard until you believe it.
53% of people in a poll in early january said that either the election was stolen (46%) or that they were not sure if the election was stolen (7%). 43% said the election was not stolen.
Regardless, you would have a serious problem is 20% of people thought the election was stolen.
You keep getting the burden of proof wrong.
While the burden of proof is on the losing candidate in a court challenge.
The burden of proof that the election was conducted lawfully and without fraud is on the GOVERNMENT.
It is government that must get the consent of the governed.
The consent of the governed does NOT mean Government says that Biden won the vote.
The consent of the governed means that the people – nearly all of them BELEIVE that Biden won the election.
You do not have that, and you are doing everything possible to assure that you will never get that.
Nope it is an actual poll.
Yup I have repeated it many times.
It might be the best poll for Trump – I am not sure.
Does not matter – if 20% of the people thought the election was stolen – you have a problem.
Only about 1/3 of colonials supported revolution. Only about 17% of those strongly.
The only poll I’ve heard of giving Trump an edge was only a majority of Republicans. Perhaps you can produce this poll given we’re looking for facts. Even if this poll exists, if could have been skewed.
I searched for “poll election fraud” and found myriads of polls with varying results – including from NPR, and Quinipac.
I am sure you can find some that find a majority who did not think Fraud was significant – but there are plenty that find the opposite.
I can not find the site that tracked changing attitudes over time.
But interestingly the percentage of the population as a whole that beleived there as significant fraud remained constant from the day after the election until The capital protests. But the mix changed. Close to the election 30% of democrats beleived there was significant fraud, But only 56% of republicans. By the capital protests, it was 77% of republicans and 13% of democrats.
Immediately after the election 43% of independents thought the election was stolen. By the capital protests 46% of independents thought the election was stolen.
You can find other numbers – you can always find competing polls.
While in this instance I am using the polls that are most damning to the left.
This is a huge problem regardless. If as little as 20% of the people think the election was stolen by fraud – that is a serious threat to the stability of the government.
Government is only legitimate with the consent of the governed and government does not get to decide on its own that it has peoples consent.
The courts made a serious error by not taking complaints of fraud seriously. They needed to.
They needed to actually adjudicate the matter, to hold hearings to allow discovery to take witness testimony,
Though a substantially better answer was offered by part of the Trump team.
Send the national Guard in to the places with the most serious allegations, and have them by hand recount all paper ballots and also verify all mailing ballot envelopes. And live stream the entire thing on the internet so that everyone could watch.
No matter what the results – everyone would have accepted it.
The fact that the Democrats did not on their own offer a similar approach the moment large scale fraud claims arrose is damning.
And democrats have a very serious problem in this area.
There has been so much of democrats hiding the ball, Hiding illegal or improper activities. Submitting fraudulent warrant applications, lying to courts and hiding the evidence from the public that they are not trusted.
You do not understand – this is not going to get better. When you lose peoples trust – it is near impossible to get back.
This is one of the reason that Trump’s support has been so strong.
It is not because everyone loves Trump – I certainly do not.
It is because the democrats, the media, the left, Government are not trusted.
That is not going to blow over.
So I guess you don’t have an example? You repeating every unverified thing you believe isn’t proof. Yes there a number of people who believe the election was stolen. They hear it all day from people with a vested interest to say so and they only get there news from people telling them what they want to hear.
Can you read ?
I told you what to search to There are dozens of hits. You can cherry pick whatever results you want.
But everyone has far too high a percent of people beleiving the election was stolen for the government to have legitimacy.
You said a majority whioch means more than fifty percent. Show me where such a poll of more than just Republicans exists. Don’t send me down a rabbit hole.
I have.
Again you can search for it.
But you need to distingush between – a Plurality beleive the election was stolen and a majority beleive that it was rife with fraud.
Those propositions are not the same.
Here is a Yougov poll with 75% concluding that there was fraud in the election but only 45% sufficient to change the outcome.
This is much WORSE than I have claimed.
https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/11/19/america-speaks-do-they-think-fraud-occurred-2020-p
You keep changing the goalposts. So a majority don’t think the election was stolen. Also, voter fraud could include those that think likely Democratic voters were removed from the rolls or told they could text their votes or had to endure hours long waits or travel great distances to their polling place or had someone disqualiofy their vote due to an alleged signature mismatch. I voted in person because my signature has variations from minute to minute, notwithstanding whatever exist on a form years ago.
No moving goalposts at all I have been very careful about what I have said.
A plurality in multiple polls beleive the election was stolen.
A majority in those polls then the election had significant fraud.
Your claim that a majority beleive the election was not stolen – MIGHT be correct, but it is NOT established by those polls.
It is not inherently true that if less than 50% beleive the election was stolen that more than 50% beleive it was not.
And it is definitely NOT the case in some of the polls I have cited.
Some of those polls have “not sure” as an answer – and that fills the gap between pluraity and majority.
You can not count “not sure” as part of “the election was stolen” or “the election was not stolen”
But you can count it as beleive there was significant fraud – when that is what those polled answered.
“voter fraud could include those that think likely Democratic voters were removed from the rolls”
It could. As I have said many times. Get rid of voter registration entirely. With valid government issued photo ID that designates citizenship we do not need it.
BTW I do not know of a state where being removed from the registration precludes you from voting.
I do not know of a state whee not having valid ID precludes you from voting.
Lack of registration, or lack of ID merely flag you for special handling.
Both are significant signifiers of potential fraud. As they should be.
“told they could text their votes”
I have absolutely Zero problem with that. If you are so stupid you buy into a text your vote meme – you are too stupid to vote.
“had to endure hours long waits”
That is a problem for your state or district or precinct.
I have zero problems with requiring election resources to be divided equally by voter – which to a very large extent they are.
If your district or precinct blew its election money and has inadequate resources – you know who you should vote out of office.
This is one of the typical leftist nonsensical claims.
Those of us who do not live in failed banana republic left wing nut cities are not to blame because your governments screwed up and can not seem to conduct elections without long lines.
“or travel great distances to their polling place”
Pretty exclusively republicans.
“had someone disqualiofy their vote due to an alleged signature mismatch.”
Then vote in person.
I expect my bank to reject checks when the signature does not match.
And what is this “alleged” nonsense ? It is not republicans checking democrat signatures in democratic cities.
To a very large extent it is machines. The same machines used in red as in blue precincts.
What is improper is that standards for signature matching that much of the state used were ignored completely in those 6 cities that flipped the election. Whatever the standard is – it should be the same everywhere.
all you are doing is making an argument for in person voting.
I will be happy to forgo signature matching. When there is photo ID.
Finally – if there is no signature match – how do you know that the ballot is actually from the person it claims to be ?
Only real people who are citizens are allowed to vote, and only for themselves.
If You have an envelope – and it says the ballot inside is from Jane doe – how to you know that it is the ballot of Jane Doe ?
How do you know it is not someone pretending to be jane doe ?
There are a variety of matches required for ever ballot – all of these are antifraud measures.
They prevent people from voting multiple times. they prevent people from voting for others. they prevent fake people and dead people from voting.
Every anti-fraud measure also thwarts a few careless legitimate voters.
“I voted in person because my signature has variations from minute to minute, notwithstanding whatever exist on a form years ago.”
Very few people have high mismatch minute to minute that would trip a signature mismatch.
The most common reasons for mismatch are
injury, stroke, deliberate changes or gradual changes over long periods of time.
Regardless – fine signatures are out – so how do we assure the person voting by mail is even a real person.
When you vote in person – at the very least you are an actual person. Further your ID is checked – AND your signature is checked.
The only difference is that if there is a problem when you vote in person – you are there to fix it.
40,000 votes in 3 states will flip the election. That is not a difficult level of fraud to acheive.
One of the fundimental obstacles that Trump encountered with the courts is that Fraud and error are not the same thing – though they can be.
Most error is random – and there is lots of error in an election. way more than 40K votes.
But real error tends to balance out. We saw that in the razor thing NY election where the lead changed 5 times as more errors were found.
The errors approximately ballanced. That is how error works.
One of the problems with lawlessness and especially in this election is that it can push errors in one direction or the other.
DVS voting systems had an error rate of over 2/3 in Antrim and Fulton counties – and probably many other places.
If an election is entirely inperson – again that error rate will likely ballance.
But if it is by multiple methods it will not. Republicans voted in person mostly and errors related to their ballots will be the classes of errors that happen in person. Democrats voted primarily by mail. Mailin election has a much higher error rate. So a disproportionate number of errors will be Biden ballots. If all errors are blindly accepted – that will favor Biden, if they are blindly rejected that will favor Trump,
if they are adjudicated by a single person – then the results will be distorted by the biases of the adjudicator. Given that mailin ballots are in primarly democrats districts. adjudcators are going to have an unconscious – or conscious bias towards Biden. Errors will not be processed uniformly.
I am personally far less concerned about Powell’s allegation that DVS machines were juggering the vote – that is easy to catch – though we have not attempted to do so. I am far more concerned that they kick 2/3 of ballots to adjudication.
Machine errors – like signature match error will NOT reflect bias. But human judgement calls are highly distorted by bias.
It is not “a number of people”
It is tens of millions.
And it’s a damn shame that so many of you are taking the word of a pathological liar. However many people believe a ghing doesn’t make it true. What percentage of the population once believed the earth was flat?
And it’s a damn shame that so many of you think that half the country is brainwashed and racist.
But you are the same people who beleived that idiotic russian FB adds compelled people to vote for Trump.
IF 20% of the country thinks something – a wise person will give that postion some thought.
I would note that time – atleast through 2021 did NOT change peoples views on election fraud.
Allt he court losses that you fixate on did not change the total numbers.
What did happen over time is more and more republicans and independents concluded there was significant fraud and fewer and fewer democrats.
Regardless, I did not voter for Trump – ever. I KNOW the election was lawless. I KNOW it was fraudulent.
I think it is more likely than not the fraud was sufficient to flip the election.
I did not come to that conclusion because of Trump rants. I reached it by looking at the evidence.
I have rejected ALOT of the fraud claims. The early beford law claim is complete horseshit.
I think it is highly unlikely that DVS systems automatically shifted votes from Trump to Biden.
But that has NOT been properly explored.
Coversely I think it is HIGHLY LIKELY that DVS’s incredibly high adjudication rate resulted in a pro Biden error among adjudicated votes of atleast 1% – and that WOULD tip the election.
Think about that – if 1% of all votes that were sent to be adjudicated – decided by election judges, were wrongly decided for Biden, Trump wins 5 of the 6 swing states.
That is trivially simple to expect. There was no oversight of much of the adjudications. and what little there was was not meaningful.
Do you beleive that you could judge 100 ballots that were not sufficiently clear for the machine to determine the vote with 100% accuracy ?
I also beleive that it is near certain that more than 1% of mailin ballots should have been rejected.
The normal rejection rate for absentee ballots is 6%. Andthose are much more likely to be correct.
There are dozens of reasons mailin ballots are a bad idea. Not the least of which is the post office has a 3% one way error on ballots.
Pretty much everyone who says anything about the election has a vested interest.
There are billions possibly trillions of dollars at stake.
$5B was contributed to republicans in this election – do you think the contributors do not care about the outcome ?
$10B was contributed to democrats – do you think those people are indifferent to the outcome ?
Out of curiousity, can you document those numbers?
This is not my source but it loosely confirms my figures.
https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2020/11/10159327/how-much-money-elections-expensive-2020
Most of the world does not allow mailin voting at all or has very restrict rules – as an example only citizens living abroad can vote by mail, and then only by coming to a consulate or embassy with a valid photo ID.
Many of these countries restricted their voting laws in the late 20th century as a result of instances of serious mailin voting fraud.
The left makes a big deal about US relations with foreign leaders.
No european leader is going to shun Biden. But these leaders are not blind. They saw and understood what happened in our elections.
Just like US voters, they are going to be less likely to trust this administration. That will make it harder to accomplish things.
You think European leaders trusted Trump? That would require great delusion (with the possibloe exception of Boris Johnson).
Yes, I trust those who keep their commitments.
That does not mean I like them.
Trump is orders of magnitude more trustworthy that Biden.
Just one example, Trump demanded more Defense spending from EU countries.
In return he guaranteed their NG supply.
Defense spending increased significantly – it is reasonable to conclude that EU leaders trusted Trump’s guarantee.
We saw much the same in Asia. Trump was orders of magnitude more successful in negotiating with Tiawan, Japan, Philipines. India, Vietnam. The Trump presidency is a dramatic power shift in Asia – away from China to a lose regional structure much like NATO but less formal. TRump;s presidency is the first time EVER that india conducted joint military exercises with the US/
Obama’s was a complete failure in Asia. He practiced apeasement, and ended up with pretty much all the countries above moving closer to China. Because they did not trust Obama to have their backs.
It will be interesting to see how Asia responds to a president that has so much personal interest tied to China.
Then there is the mideast. Do you beleive that the Abraham accords were acheived magically ?
The single most important factor was Trump dumping Iran. Much of the mideast sees Iran as more of a threat than Israel by far.
Regardless, large peace deals require TRUST.
As much as people pissed on some of Trump’s “pro-israel” decisions – these helped to build trust – even in countries that opposed the decisions. Trump did what he promised. Therefore THEY could trust that he would do what he promised.
Now we get to see how well Biden can do ?
My guess is the great accomplishments of the Biden administration will be:
A collapse of US lead containment of China,
A collapse of containment of Russia – you know that country Trump was purportedly in bed with.
Reinstatement of the stupid Iran deal. Iran with Nukes and ICBMs.
Worse US relations with the rest of the mideast – because of the iran deal.
There is a deal to be made with Iran – but Iran is not yet ready to make it.
Here is one Poll.
From Nov 5 thru Jan 6 the overall percentages stayed the same. But more republicans and independents concluded the election was stolen while less democrats did.
https://twitter.com/Rasmussen_Poll/status/1329741803025801217?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1329741803025801217%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fredstate.com%2Fbrandon_morse%2F2020%2F11%2F30%2Feven-a-large-number-of-democrats-believe-biden-stole-the-election-n286942
While any Rasmussen poll should be taken with a grain of salt. It still isn’t over 50% and is not most which you claimed. Keep trying.
“While any Rasmussen poll should be taken with a grain of salt.”
Because they were the most accurate in 2016 and 2020 ?
I gave you a yougov poll with 75% thinking there was significant fraud in the election.
Appolgize and go away.
Trump votes increased by 10M from 2016 – the GOP is not dwindling.
Republicans portion of minority votes has been steadily increasing every year since 2008.
BTW this is not a new pattern. As democgraphic groups move from poverty to working class they more from democrat to republican over a couple of generations.
I asked for real world examples of voter supresion – and no one has provided any actual voter supression.
Actual voter supression is a crime. But as is typical – the left takes a phrase that has meaning and pretends it means something else.
The effects of gerrymandering a minimal. it is also dangerous – you can get wiped out by a small swing in voting.
There is no objectively correct means to create an election district.
Redistricting is required as a consequence of the Census.
Politicians lie – get over it.
Even if true these claims would be irrelevant.
The capital is large. That is all. It is a public building. I would expect that if you asked your congressmen they would give you a tour.
The real question is why was it locked down while congress was in session ?
We do not run government by star chamber.
Our legislature acts in public if it acts legitimately.
John say, “ The real question is why was it locked down while congress was in session ?” DHS issued a bulletin stating that the threat of domestic extremists is still an issue. After the security failure of the Capitol police on the 6th. I’m sure they are not too keen on repeating the same mistake. They are not going to tolerate anything that shows they are not taking it seriously.
The public’s access has been restricted courtesy of Trump supporters attempted coup.
President’s don’t ride in convertibles anymore for a specific reason.
Now that federal authorities are more focused on domestic terrorism and extremists, an issue they have for too long ignored, they can no longer assume they are “just a couple of nut jobs” vying for attention.
Congressmen would send an aide to give you a tour. They are already too busy meeting with lobbyists and caucusing.
“The real question is why was it locked down while congress was in session ?” DHS issued a bulletin stating that the threat of domestic extremists is still an issue. After the security failure of the Capitol police on the 6th. I’m sure they are not too keen on repeating the same mistake. They are not going to tolerate anything that shows they are not taking it seriously.”
And yet Brandeis says you are wrong.
There was a security failure at the capital on the 6th – it was the duty of capital police – government to keep the capital open.
That was relatively trivial to accomplish.
Next – WHAT DOMESTIC TERRORISM ?
Like it or not free speech is not terrorism.
Speaking the truth is not terrorism,. Even lying is not terrorism.
Breaking down doors and windows is not terrorism.
Free assembly is not terrorism.
Petitioning government is not terrorism.
Even looting is not terrorism.
What is the threat ? That people will protest an illegitimate government ? That is free speech not terrorism.
I would further note that insurrection is NOT terrorism. The minutemen were not terrorists.
This whole claim is ludicrously stupid nonsense.
Terrorists do not attack Government – they attack innocents.
Again all DHS is saying is that government is locked down because those in government do not have the trust of the people and they know it.
If you do not wish to see much worse than what occurred on the 6th – then you had better figure out how to allow protests, speech, assembly, petitioning the government. Because when government supresses peoples rights, ther recorse is violence – and that violence is justified.
You have made things worse by the numbers.
You could have conducted the elections in accord with the law and constitutions.
You did not. That cost you some trust of the people.
You could have acted transparently
You did not. That cost you some trust of the people.
You could have investigated claims of fraud instead of stonewalling.
You did not. That cost you some trust of the people.
You could have accepted protests, assembly, petitioning the government
You did not. That cost you some trust of the people.
And you wonder why trust in government is low ?
You have made a mess of things, and it is likely to get worse.
It is my hope that those actual extremists you are afraid of can remain peaceful a while longer, and that the left will back off from stupidity and accept that they have failed to earn the trust of people and must except the protests, assembly, speech, petitioning govenrment, and disruption of their agenda that may result.
In 2011 Democrats occupied the state capital in WI to thwart republicans passing right to work legislation.
There was some looting and destruction, but for the most part it was non-violent – because protestors were allowed in, The police were directed properly to NOT engage in conflict with protestors. This seige of the WI Capital lasted three weeks and it accomplished nothing. Few if any were arrested. Why ? Because the protest and protestors actions were legitimate.
I am not obligated to agree with them. But they were free to do as they did – including to disrupt governmnt.
In 2018 Democrats swarmed the US Capital – they were all over the Senate, The confronted senators, in their offices, hallways. elevators, cloak rooms, Their were alkinds of threats – even death threats, and threats by the Senate Minroity leader. They intimidated Senators to change their vote on Kavanaugh.
Very few were arrested. Again protest – even in the US Capital is legitimate.
What is it that you KNOW of the Jan 6 protests that was different ?
What if they intended to occupy the capital – for weeks ? Been done, its legitimate.
What if they intended to intimidate senators and congressmen to change their votes ? Been done, its legitimate.
What if they threatened members of congress ? Been done, its legitimate.
Did they try to burn the capital – as “protestors” in Portland did to the Federal Courthouse ? Nope.
Was it an insurrection ? I do not think so. But what if it was. On April 15, 1775 the minutemen at Lexington and Concord kill 73 british soldiers. These were soldiers doing they duty, exactly as the capital police. This was an actual insurrection.
It was justified because The British government had lost the trust of the people.
That is where you are headed.
The longer you stiffle dissent, the longer you thwart protest, the longer you pretend that power assumed without clearly proven consent is legitimate the more likely actual domestic terrorism becomes.
“The public’s access has been restricted courtesy of Trump supporters attempted coup.”
Does not work that way. Please read Whitney Vs. California. Your fears do not justify restricting the right to speak, assemble and petition the government.
“President’s don’t ride in convertibles anymore for a specific reason.”
Irrelevant. No one has demanded that Biden ride a convertible.
The capital police are free today, and were free on the 6th to expand the zone of control arround the capital and to preclude anyone from bringing weapons into the capital. They were free to impose reasonable limits on the number of people allowed into the capital at one time. These are steps they MIGHT legitimately take.
This kind of military occupation of DC has not occured since Lincoln.
“Now that federal authorities are more focused on domestic terrorism and extremists, an issue they have for too long ignored, they can no longer assume they are “just a couple of nut jobs” vying for attention.”
Yes, they are engaged in political repression. They have subject the National Guard to ideological purity tests.
As noted – neither you nor the Biden administration have any legitimate concept of demostic terrorism.
There is an absolute RIGHT to oppose the government – by those on the left, by those on the right.
There have been protests in front of the whitehouse or capital throughout US history.
Suffregettes protested and shouted in the early 20th century, Abolitionists before that.
People protested the Vietnam war,
You screamed bloody murder when violent protestors engaged in Arson and looting were driven back a block in May.
The National Guard did not occupy DC during the riots all summer.
Sen. Cotton plead with Trump to call in the national guard, and he did not.
You are far more affraid of the people that Trump was of Antifa and BLM.
You are burning your own legitimacy and credibilty.
Have fun.
What gives, Nance? I have to wonder if the West Coast wants secession, but you just want the rest of us to think it’s our idea.
Hey Nancy beware the Ides of MAGA March(ers) and here’s hoping for an “E tu Schifty” moment!
The language being used, as if speaking of North Koreans, is horrifying and frightening. Is it possible that she genuinely believes this? Could she possibly have a mental problem and is paranoid?
Yes and yes.
What is certain is that democrats are genuinely afraid of the people.
This government is not legitimate. They should be afraid.
And they are behaving exactly as if they are.
This is little different from Hong Kong.
John say,
“ What is certain is that democrats are genuinely afraid of the people.”
That is false.
You would be singing a different tune if democrats did what Trump supporters did. You’re obfuscating a real concern as fear. These “people” you refer as the people openly issued death threats to lawmakers including Vice President Pence. It’s ironic that you suggest democrats are afraid of “the people”when republicans themselves don’t want those same “people” to be witnesses at Trump’s impeachment trial. Shouldn’t they be calling on those trump supporters to testify on the president’s behalf? Many are eager to do so.
“ This government is not legitimate. They should be afraid.
And they are behaving exactly as if they are.”
Making false claims about the legitimacy of the government is what sows the distrust of government you claim is the problem. Making these false claims is exactly why individuals such as yourself are the problem. Spending so much time entertaining conspiracy theories have rotten your mind. You no longer seem to have the capacity to distinguish fact from fiction.
““ What is certain is that democrats are genuinely afraid of the people.”
That is false.”
You certainly behave like you are.
“You would be singing a different tune if democrats did what Trump supporters did.”
There were protestors after the Trump election, through to and after the inaugural. They were violent.
Trumps election was challenged. Democratic representatives voted against certification, Democratic representatives introduced articles of impeachment immediately.
What is it that was not worse when Trump was elected ?
The differences:
The house and senate did not shutdown because they were scared of people or protests.
The National Guard was not called out to defend DC – even though there was much more violence.
Trump protestors were more numerous and overall more peaceful.
“You’re obfuscating a real concern as fear.”
You can fear whatever you want. You may not use force just because you are afraid.
“These “people” you refer as the people openly issued death threats to lawmakers including Vice President Pence. ”
There have been so many death threats against Trump – and not by random nobodies, but by elected democrats, and numerous prominent people. No president since Lincoln has been publicly threatened as much.
“It’s ironic that you suggest democrats are afraid of “the people”when republicans themselves don’t want those same “people” to be witnesses at Trump’s impeachment trial. Shouldn’t they be calling on those trump supporters to testify on the president’s behalf? Many are eager to do so.”
I am thoroughly uninterested in Faux impeachment Deux. It is stupid, and if Democrats wish to make fools of themselves they are welcome to. In fact I would encourage it. I have no idea what this “witness spat” you are claiming is. Nor do I care.
I do not know why you think you need witnesses. You rushed the impeachment claiming that offense was obvious and self proving.
We have all heard Trump’s public remarks that you claim are the basis for impeachment – they are not even close to incitement.
What is it you think you need witnesses for ? And if you needed witnesses – why didn’t the house call them, get them on the record.
No, no!’ said the Queen. `Sentence first–verdict afterwards.’
`Stuff and nonsense!’ said Alice loudly. `The idea of having the sentence first!’
`Hold your tongue!’ said the Queen, turning purple.
`I won’t!’ said Alice.
`Off with her head!’ the Queen shouted at the top of her voice. Nobody moved.
Anyway, I am not interested in debating this with you – Democrats control the Senate – behave stupid if you want.
“Making false claims about the legitimacy of the government is what sows the distrust of government you claim is the problem.”
Nope – this is typical leftist nonsense. Mistrust in government is the consequence of the behavior of government.
If I am able to persuade you or others that the governments behavior diminishes its trustworthness – that is a positive good,
“When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.”
“Making these false claims is exactly why individuals such as yourself are the problem.”
You clearly are clueless about speech.
“Fear of serious injury cannot alone justify suppressions of free speech and assembly. Men feared witches and burnt women. It is the function of speech to free men from the bondage of irrational fears.
…
Those who won our independence by revolution were not cowards. They did not fear political change. They did not exalt order at the cost of liberty. To courageous, self reliant men, with confidence in the power of free and fearless reasoning applied through the processes of popular government, no danger flowing from speech can be deemed clear and present, unless the incidence of the evil apprehended is so imminent that it may befall before there is opportunity for full discussion. If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence. Only an emergency can justify repression. Such must be the rule if authority is to be reconciled with freedom. Such, in my opinion, is the command of the Constitution . . .
Moreover, even imminent danger cannot justify resort to prohibition of these functions essential to effective democracy, unless the evil apprehended is relatively serious. Prohibition of free speech and assembly is a measure so stringent that it would be inappropriate as the means for averting a relatively trivial harm to society.”
Whitney V. California Justicce Brandeis.
“Spending so much time entertaining conspiracy theories have rotten your mind.”
Which conspiracy theories would those be ?
I could are less about what little Qanon nonsense I have heard, and I know as many democrats who think Epstein was murdered as Republicans.
The election was self evidently lawless. Democrats violated their state constitutions and election laws.
That they did so with the bless of courts only makes it far worse not better.
If you beleive that conclusion is wrong – the burden is on YOU to persuade otherwise. You are no more entitled to have others belive your claims than I. Only 40% of people trust the government. Have I actively argued to undermine Trust in Government – Absolutely, and I have succeeded. You were free to argue your case – and you did. We have heard all your claims about the election. Yet, the majority of people do not trust the government or the election. And a plurality believe the election was stolen. You lost the argument.
BTW even if a majority of people trusted govenrment, and trusted the election – you do not seem to gather than government legitimacy requires that almost ALL trust government and the outcome of elections. They need not like the outcome. They need not like the choices other voters make, but they must beleive the election is a consequences of real voters choices not coercion, not inducement, not fraud, not lawlessness.
You are not entitled to make the circular argument that challenging government undermines government – of course it does.
And those who have challenged Government have been successful.
“You no longer seem to have the capacity to distinguish fact from fiction”
From someone who thinks that the Steele Dosier is NOT Russian Disinformation ?
Who thinks that Russian Favored Trump not Clinton (Or Biden) ?
Who thinks that investigating Trump was legitimate but investigating Biden was not ?
Who thinks the Biden laptop is Russian Disinformation ?
And who thinks the election was conducted according to the law ?
And that is just the short list of nonsense you have tried to sell.
Get a clue:
Government is not trusted.
You are not trusted.
Media is not trusted.
Why ? Because you have destroyed your own credibility, integrity and trust.
Nothing I say can accomplish that. The best I can do to destroy trust in you, in government, …. is remind people of the truth.
If we’ve learned anything from the last 4 years, take the Democrats words literally and then reverse the target. So when Pelosi says supplemental [budget] for more security for members when the enemy is within the House of Representatives — a threat that members are concerned about in addition to what is happening outside. It is reasonable to conclude that she and her Democratic caucus are the enemy (of the United States) within and the Republican caucus are their enemy.
Fear is the mind killer, too.
Fear and Social Control
https://youtu.be/w_ybzC2wP7Q
Oh I smell fear alright. It’s not among the people. It’s on the breath of the elites
Sal Sar
Sal, what did you think of the snob class killing trades because THEY were losing money? Our woke, billionaire hypocrites might have finally gone too far?
I think the hedges that have made this lame attempt to suppress buying of the relevant stocks by small fry players like me should hang.
To use the argot of WSB reddit, I am full retard on this, personally interested in short squeeze efforts. It’s not over. We can all see the other names and will double down and wash, rinse, and repeat
Sal
I fully support truly free markets.
But it is a mistake to assert that there is some virtue to one side of the market.
The hedge funds and reditor’s are both acting in their own interests.
I would further note that the reditor’s post more of a danger to themselves and others that reditors.
There are limits to how far down you can push the value of a stock.
Game stop is a real business that will utlimately become more and more attractive to investors as its price declines.
While the stock will become less and less attractive as the price increases.
It is far easier to harm people by overvaluing a stock than undervaluing it.
But AGAIN – do not make the mistake of presuming that one side is inherently virtuous.
I am not even assuming that the reditors are inherently left or right, Some are.
Some parts of this are political – in a sense, and that actually makes this MORE dangerous.
Political motivations cloud peoples investment judgement.
The hedge fund managers are driven by profit.
Reditors are driven by more than profit and that is dangerous in the market.
Hello Prairie, the following preprint paper provides valuable information on the variants. Published just 2 days ago, it’s causing a lot of buzz among academic physicians and researchers. Although it is a preprint, it’s bullet proof since Dr David Ho’s name is listed in the last position of authors. He’s a big wig in HIV research at Columbia. Read this paper carefully.
cheers
Increased Resistance of SARS-CoV-2 Variants B.1.351 and B.1.1.7 to Antibody Neutralization
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.01.25.428137v2
Recent emergence of new SARS-CoV-2 variants B.1.1.7 in the UK and B.1.351 in South Africa is of concern because of their purported ease of transmission and extensive mutations in the spike protein. We now report that B.1.1.7 is refractory to neutralization by most mAbs to the N-terminal domain (NTD) of spike and relatively resistant to a number of mAbs to the receptor-binding domain (RBD). It is modestly more resistant to convalescent plasma (~3 fold) and vaccinee sera (~2 fold). Findings on B.1.351 are more worrisome in that this variant is not only refractory to neutralization by most NTD mAbs but also by multiple individual mAbs to the receptor-binding motif on RBD, largely due to an E484K mutation, although some mAb combinations retain activity. Moreover, B.1.351 is markedly more resistant to neutralization by convalescent plasma (~11-33 fold) and vaccinee sera (~6.5-8.6 fold). B.1.351 and emergent variants with similar spike mutations present new challenges for mAb therapy and threaten the protective efficacy of current vaccines.
HIV is in a completely different virus family than coronaviruses, yet there are overlapping similarities than seem a little odd. The issue with CD4, for instance. I think I also read that some people with coronavirus were sparking false positives on HIV tests.
I will read the paper. Thank you, Estovir.
Dr Francis Boyle (Infowears interviews/etc..) pointed out a year ago he & other labs could see that as one of the (illegal gain of function) components added into this covid 19 virus was the infectious piece of the HIV virus.
Wow! These illegal bio-weapons labs are just to damn funny, who of thought, a Air Born HIV Type Weapon.
And Dr Fauci & Bill Gates’ Finger Prints are all over it. LOL/Sick & Disgusting People Think??? Maybe the don’t
Heard the other day it’s up to at least 20 labs now have confirmed the info.
What the next surprise those Nut Jobs have for us little people?
Sorry, that piece was from Oky1
I hadn’t reset the name after cleaning the junk crap of my pc.
Yes, I am reading the paper. 🙂 I’ll need to give it some thought.
Regarding CD4, one of the papers I read about CD4 and SARS-Cov-2 was retracted from Nature because they used the wrong kind of T cells in the research. The other paper is in preprint, so I’d like also like to find additional research that has been accepted and published (lots of papers are still in the preprint stage). Nonetheless, CD4 is depleted in COVID. Is it because people are low on B1 or zinc and just cannot keep up with demand? I need to see if something else might be going on…
Good for you reading it
I only added HIV to the comment to clarify the formidable scientist that David Ho is. Alas that’s all some on here noticed in my comment and derailed the discussion. Try to focus. the preprint paper is solid science and it illustrates what has been stated for a while: mutations due to evolutionary pressures are guaranteed and the fitness variable of SARS-CoV-2 is impressive
The virus is making American “leaders” look like chumps. They are failing us. Fauci knows this issue is mushrooming as the paper verifies. Worse is how Pelosi, Schumer and Biden are deflecting attention to SJW issues via executive orders, impeachment trial, divid and conquer Marxist strategies and censorship. For the sake of America they should be coming together. If Americans really understood what this virus is doing, they would demand more una voce from Biden and US Congress.
NB: HIV has nothing to do with SARS-CoV-2. Aside from both being RNA viruses and they effect damage due to their transcriptional behaviors at cellular levels, they are not related at all. One enters the host via TCD4 cells and the other via ACE2 proteins. Once they enter the host, it’s off to the races, making how they entered irrelevant. Once inside they have free reign and cause damage to endothelial cells, macrophages, microglial cells, create systemic havoc via inflammatory cascades, system wide tissue damage (CNS, pulmonary, cardiovascular, renal, hepatic, etc). See Figure 3 of this decent though dated review
https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/physiol.00019.2020
Best suggestion – use recent scientific papers (after November 2020) to understand the disease and use these to infuriate you on how Biden and Pelosi are doing nothing. The election is past, and they’ve already shown they lied in the COVID promises
One of the really big deals about the mRNA vaccines is that a new mRNA vaccine can be created in days and is near certain to be as safe as the existing one. Ramping up production may take a small amount of time – but even that is not significantly different from current production.
It is my understanding that efforts to adapt the vaccine to the new varrients are already underway.
John,
Sounds like the start of a game of ‘whack a mole’. It doesn’t really get to the underlying the issues surrounding SARS-CoV-2 either.
I am not as up on the details of micro-biology of some here. With all respect to those who are, critical thinking is likely to be more important than the details.
One of the hidden lessons of C19 is that stopping diseases like this at the outside may be difficult, but gets millions of times harder with time. Our best chance to beat C19 was in Wuhan in October or November.
Today we probably can eliminate C19 – just as we eliminated Small Pox. But if we do not do so with dispatch we will have this forever.
What I am seeing so far is that the vaccines are not as effective as originally claimed HOWEVER they are as effective as Flu and similar vaccines. And that is probably sufficient.
So far the mutations do not appear to circumvent vaccines. But should they, it is inside the capability of mRNA vaccines to adapt sufficiently quickly. But CAN is not the same as Will. If mutations circumvent immunity – we must bring new mRNA vaccines to production FASTER than the mutation spreads – that is possible, but not likely with government healthcare regimes. They just can not act fast enough – so we better hope that no mutation circumvents immunity.
I have problems with these papers on virus evolution. Mutation in viruses is common place. Further the vast majority of mutations FAIL.
Evolution actually favors less rapid spread and less virulence. Evolution favors symbiosis over parasites, and parasites over fatality.
That does not means that faster spreading or more lethal variants can not arrise.
Estovir,
“Alas that’s all some on here noticed in my comment and derailed the discussion.”
Sorry. It has been something I’ve been concerned about in light of the CD4 depletion I’ve been reading about. I wasn’t ready to answer in response to the article; I should have just held any answer until I was ready.
“Try to focus. the preprint paper is solid science and it illustrates what has been stated for a while: mutations due to evolutionary pressures are guaranteed and the fitness variable of SARS-CoV-2 is impressive”
Yes, as noted in the final paragraph:
“Mutationally, this virus is traveling in a direction that could ultimately lead to escape from our current therapeutic and prophylactic interventions directed to the viral spike.”
“current therapeutic and prophylactic interventions”
Sounds like we need to try a different approach.
I am curious why so much of the interventions are aimed at the adaptive immune system rather than steeling/supporting the immune system or supporting the body’s built-in defense systems? There is plenty of research that could be aimed at giving the cell’s machinery what it needs to function optimally.
There is plenty of research showing what the different organelles need to function optimally. In order for the mitochondria to make ATP, it requires Mg or the ATP will not be biologically active, which will affect the Na+-K/ATPase ion channels needed for oxygen-sensing (this doesn’t even include possible low levels of NA or K that could be present, too). The Endoplasmic reticulum requires Zn in order to fold its proteins or it will go into the unfolded protein response and then it’ll eventually commit apoptosis if the UPR isn’t resolved. Think of all the proteins the ER has to deal with, so if it’s depleted that will leave a lot of things undone. Not to mention both of these organelles chugging out the ROS that need to get cleaned up by lysosomes and antioxidants like glutathione (which requires not just NAC, but also selenium) or resveratrol (etc etc). Then there are the interactions between different vitamins and minerals, like vitamin D being necessary to turn on a little protein that acts as a zinc transporter (the only way Zinc can get into cells), but vitamin D needs magnesium for activation. But quercitin and epigallocatechin-gallate from green tea can also both act as zinc ionophores. And that’s just a start.
In regards to the spike protein, there does appear to be compounds that interfere with the docking of the virus: ivermectin, and, hesperidin from oranges:
“Ivermectin docked in the region of leucine 91 of the spike and histidine 378 of the SARS Cov2-ACE2 receptor complex, between the SARS-Cov2 protein and the ACE2 protein. The binding energy of ivermectin to the spike-ACE2 complex was –18 kcal/mol and binding constant was 5.8×10–8.”
in vivo 34: 3023-3026 (2020) “Ivermectin Docks to the SARS-CoV-2 Spike Receptor-binding Domain Attached to ACE2” STEVEN LEHRER and PETER H. RHEINSTEIN
“This compound modulates the binding energy of bound structure of ACE2 and spike protein. This result indicates that due to presence of hesperidin, the bound structure of ACE2 and spike protein fragment becomes unstable. As a result, this natural product can impart antiviral activity in SARS CoV2 infection.”
Nature Research. October 2020. “Molecular docking study of potential phytochemicals and their efects on the complex of SARS‑CoV2 spike protein and human ACE2.” Anamika Basu, Anasua Sarkar & Ujjwal Maulik
“The virus is making American “leaders” look like chumps. They are failing us. Fauci knows this issue is mushrooming as the paper verifies.”
It isn’t just the virus. It’s chronic illness, in general. Chronic illness is ‘managed’ rather than making sure that the underlying issues get addressed. My insurance company wouldn’t cover a vitamin D test for my well-check, nevermind that my Vitamin D status is pretty important for my body to fight off the coronavirus. Nor will it cover a magnesium RBC or a Zinc check, nevermind that the status of those in my system is also really important for my body to fight off coronavirus or any number of other issues. Both Mg and Zn are depleted in T2D, for instance. I don’t have that, but plenty of people dying from coronavirus do–maybe those levels should be checked. But it isn’t just supplementation–it’s food, too (there’s a difference between a vitamin C supplement and what comes straight from an orange, for instance), and most people eat too many processed foods that just simply do not have adequate micronutrients. People too often don’t want to hear it, though, because it would mean changing their diets and doing more than popping a pill to get well.
Good for you for reading the Ho paper. It’s an impressive one.
ATP is synthesized mainly by the electron transport chain (ETC) which is biochemistry. Now you are going into another discussion not related to the paper. But since you mentioned it, here is a brief overview off the top of my head. Metabolism includes biochemical pathways such as Glycolysis (catabolism of glucose to synthesize 2 ATP and Pyruvate de novo). This pathway feeds the next major metabolic pathway known as the Citric Acid Cycle (aka Krebs Cycle, Tricyclic Acid Cycle) which produce 2 ATP and metabolites crucial for the ETC. The ETC produces the majority of the ATP our body requires, roughly 34 molecules per every “turn” of the cycle. It is in the last step of ETC that we learn why Oxygen is essential, hence an aerobic pathway. There are many other biochemical pathways but ATP comes from mainly the ETC. ETC is performed in every single cell of the human body within mitochondria.
The vitamins and minerals you mention are essential. However they are cofactors in many biochemical pathways which is to say they are not curative nor therapeutic. They may be beneficial if a person suffers malnutrition or depletion of these cofactors for any number of reasons: genetic insufficiencies, poor nutrition, etc. however when treating a person, we assume they have these essential cofactors until proven otherwise. Obviously there are exceptions like premature baby, individuals living in a Third World Country, alcoholics and drug addicts (malnutrition), eating disorders, and others. You are essentially asserting with no exploration that a person’s illness is due to a lack of these cofactors. I think you mean well but you are basically throwing darts hoping something will stick. In medicine we like to think that we arrive at a diagnosis and treatment based on data and thinking through issues. First you start with basic labs, history and physical, and differential diagnosis.
As for the adaptive immune system, it is ground zero when it comes to infectious diseases. Recall from our previous discussions that the immune system is a bifurcated system. There is the innate system (monocytes, macrophages, neutrophils, dendritic cells, eosinophils, basophils, mast cells) and then there is the acquired / adaptive immune system (NK Cells, B cells and T cells). Neutrophils are the majority of the innate immune cells. T cells are the majority of the lymphocytes. The innate system works constantly and responds in minutes to invasion. The adaptive system takes weeks. Viruses are addressed by the adaptive immune system. Monoclonal antibodies and vaccines utilize the adaptive immune system. Unless if a person is deficient in parts of the innate system, you go with the adaptive immune system
I may have provided the following link in the past, however it is used by graduate health science students and medical students to review the immune system. It is based on the best immunology text book IMHO on the market:
https://my.rocketmix.com/coursedetails.aspx?cid=3128&guest=1
If you can grasp this material you will understand why we are discussing COVID in the approach we are currently addressing.
NB: Immunology is a very new science. Few physicians understand it, and with each year we discover new concepts. HIV forced physicians to become acquainted with the immune system, late 1990s. The above resource is based on an excellent textbook but alas it is obsolete even if it is the latest edition.
As for HIV, recall that’s what I research and I treat HIV patients. While AIDS (not HIV) depletes TCD4 cells, having a low TCD4 count is not pathognomonic for HIV. Lymphocytopenia (as the Latin implies) is a low “white cell count” usually T cells. Malaria, TB, chemotherapy, radiation, IBD, Celiac disease, AIDS, Hepatitis, and many other medical conditions cause low TCD4 cells. AIDS causes it because HIV enters the host via that cell, depleting it in the initial stages and in the untreated HIV patient. As stated, once the virus enters the host, it has free reign of the body, making its mechanism of entering the host irrelevant. That COVID results in Lymphocytopenia is not surprising but it is a symptom of a bigger picture
Keep reading!
Every good physician spends 20% of their time reviewing the basic medical sciences. You can’t address evolving diseases if you don’t know the basic medical sciences like biochemistry. And of course our knowledge is extremely limited. Pelosi and Biden: horrific understanding of our current situation.
Estovir,
Thank you for the thoughtful and information replete post. I will try to respond to it succinctly but thoroughly. 🙂 I appreciate the additional educational link. Learning is one of those things that feeds my soul.
“However they are cofactors in many biochemical pathways which is to say they are not curative nor therapeutic. They may be beneficial if a person suffers malnutrition or depletion of these cofactors for any number of reasons genetic insufficiencies, poor nutrition, etc. however when treating a person, we assume they have these essential cofactors until proven otherwise.”
Why would they not be considered curative or therapeutic if they put a biochemical pathway back on track? And, why would doctors assume that patients are replete in said essential cofactors considering 1) The typical micronutrient-poor standard American diet, 2) The widespread use of medications that can interfere with absorption, for example proton pump inhibitors and oral contraceptives 3) the content of the scientific literature noting the breadth of subclinical to outright clinical insufficiencies and deficiencies across a wide variety of chronic diseases as well as the elderly.
Gastroenterology Research. 2011. “Proton Pump Inhibitors Interfere With Zinc Absorption and Zinc Body Stores.” Christopher P. Farrell, et al.
European Review for Medical and Pharmacological Sciences. 2013. “Oral contraceptives and changes in nutritional requirements.” M.PALMERY, A. SARACENO, A. VAIARELLI, G. CARLOMAGNO
“Obviously there are exceptions like premature baby, individuals living in a Third World Country, alcoholics and drug addicts (malnutrition), eating disorders, and others.”
You noted above the issue of poor nutrition. The Standard American Diet would qualify, considering processed foods are nutrient-poor compared to vegetables, fruit, meat and other *real* food. Also, the higher phytate-content of grain-based foods can bind to certain minerals, for instance, and prevent effective absorption. I noted two examples of medications that can interfere with effective absorption. There are also microorganisms, such as Heliobacter pylori that can interfere with absorption of certain micronutrients due, in part, to the change in stomach pH.
“You are essentially asserting with no exploration that a person’s illness is due to a lack of these cofactors.”
I have done a great deal of personal exploration and have the research literature, as have others far more qualified than I (Dr. Terry Wahls comes to mind). I have also had personal experience with the effect these cofactors have on health, especially the effect their insufficiency has on health.
Minding My Mitochondria: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLjgBLwH3Wc
“The innate system works constantly and responds in minutes to invasion.”
If it works constantly and is supposed to respond in minutes, wouldn’t the innate immune system, then, be ground zero?
I don’t mean to quibble about what system addresses what, but I thought the innate immune system does also confront viruses.
Estovir,
“Unless if a person is deficient in parts of the innate system, you go with the adaptive immune system”
I think deficiency in parts of the innate immune system is more common than people think. These are just for zinc deficiency:
“In recent decades, zinc homeostasis was also found to be important for the innate immune system, especially for maintaining the function of macrophages. It is now generally accepted that dysregulated zinc homeostasis in macrophages causes impaired phagocytosis and an abnormal inflammatory response. However, many questions remain with respect to the mechanisms that underlie these processes, particularly at the cellular and molecular levels. Here, we review our current understanding of the roles that zinc and zinc transporters play in regulating macrophage function.”
J Immunol Res. 2018 Dec 6. “The Role of Zinc and Zinc Homeostasis in Macrophage Function.” Hong Gao, et al.
“A patient with isolated zinc deficiency was found to have lymphopenia (420 lymphocytes/microliter), depressed T-cell mitogen response (48% of normal control), increased numbers of circulating T-suppressor cells (OKT8 reactive cells) and decreased circulating T-helper cells (OKT4 reactive cells). Activity of the patient’s natural killer (NK) cells was 1 lytic unit/10(6) cells (normal 10 to 40), and monocyte cytotoxicity (MC) was four times that of normal controls. Zinc repletion in vivo improved the peripheral lymphocyte count, corrected the abnormal OKT8-to-OKT4 ratio, normalized T-cell response to mitogen, improved NK function, and lowered MC to control values.”
J Lab Clin Med. 1983 Oct. “Alterations in human natural killer cell activity and monocyte cytotoxicity induced by zinc deficiency.” J I Allen, R T Perri, C J McClain, N E Kay
Estovir,
As an HIV researcher, you may have seen this paper, but in case you hadn’t, I thought it might pique your interest, as it intersects our discussion of zinc, the elderly, and immunity. I could only read the abstract.
Int J Immunopharmacol. 1999 Apr. “Contribution of zinc to reduce CD4+ risk factor for ‘severe’ infection relapse in aging: parallelism with HIV.” E Mocchegiani 1, M Muzzioli, R Gaetti, S Veccia, C Viticchi, G Scalise
Abstract
Aging and HIV have parallelism in immunodeficiency status because of the appearance of infections or relapse leading to death in both conditions. HIV-RNA is predictor for HIV progression correlated with CD4+ depletion. CD4+ and plasma zinc levels (zincaemia) may be predictors for infections relapse in aging because of zinc relevance for normal immune efficiency against infections and for CD4+ growth. Moreover, zincaemia decreases in aging and infection. A total of 67 elderly subjects affected by infections resistant to antibiotic therapy were recruited. A total of 28 HIV+ subjects with HAART therapy were also used. CD4+ depletion (507 mm3) and zincaemia deficiency (76 microg/dl), as compared to CD4+ (700-1100 mm3) and zincaemia (85-100 microg/dl; age 40-75 years) normal ranges, are possible limits (Cox hazard regression) for severe infections relapse, such as chronic obstructive bronchitis and bronchopneumonia by bacteria or Candida complication, in aging. CD4+ and zincaemia values are within the lower limits of normal range in urinary tract infections. Zincaemia and HIV-RNA or CD4+ are inversely correlated (r = 0.57 and r = 0.72, respectively) in HIV+ HAART treated subjects. Consequently there is no appearance of opportunistic infections. Parallelism between aging and HIV may exist because of the resemblance in marked zinc deficiency and CD4+ depletion with high scores in relative risks for severe infections relapse. Supplementing zinc (12 mg Zn++/day) for one month in infected elderly subjects and HAART therapy in HIV+ subjects reduces risk scores in CD4+ and zincaemia deficiencies for infections relapse, suggesting that the zinc beneficial effect may be independent either by HIV-virus or pathogen agents involved. While HAART may reduce the occurrence of opportunistic infections in HIV by means of also major zinc bioavailability, supplementing zinc can be recommended in elderly people as resistance to infections. Since zinc deficiency is correlated with CD4+ depletion, this latter may also be good diagnostic marker to detect ‘clear immunodeficiency’ in aging, as in HIV condition.
I appreciate the additional educational link. Learning is one of those things that feeds my soul.
Few students dig into the scientific literature. Fewer still read the classic basic medical science (BMS) textbooks. Most students read “cliff note” versions of BMS texts, board review books and Wikipedia. Youtube is also very popular for PhD and MD students. Thankfully not many MD students rely on Reddit but I’ve had a few PhD students consult Reddit. My mother learned how to write in Cuba on banana leaves with the feather of a rooster. My father never went past 3rd grade. Learning is wealth and I’m glad to see you appreciate the connection between learning and the soul. I obviously enjoy teaching but the hunger in Americans today is not there for learning.
Why would they not be considered curative or therapeutic if they put a biochemical pathway back on track?
You are assuming the pathways is broken. If it were, the broken pathway would be manifest in every single tissue. Recall that I wrote Glycolysis, TCA and ETC cycles occur in every single cell in the body. Thus, if a cofactor is missing that would “break” a pathway, you would see symptoms in every single tissue. Consequently, to argue that a GI problem is due to lack of ATP or ATPase is also to argue that that problem would be found in the legs, the heart, the ears, the brain, the fingers, etc. You can’t selective ascribe an illness to a missing cofactor because that cofactor is needed in every tissue.
If it works constantly and is supposed to respond in minutes, wouldn’t the innate immune system, then, be ground zero?
We don’t an ability to infuse monocytes, macrophages, neutrophils, etc. It’s just the way it is.
I don’t mean to quibble about what system addresses what, but I thought the innate immune system does also confront viruses.
Visit the link I provided you. It has really neat videos, graphics and excellent bullet points to the text on which it is based. Learning feeds the soul, remember? Your children might appreciate it too. Our conversation can be more fruitful if you have a basic understanding of the BMS or in this case, immunology. Dendritic cells and macrophages in the innate immune system take pieces of viruses to T cells so that they can destroy them. T cells are the main effector cells when it comes to viruses.
Int J Immunopharmacol. 1999 Apr. “Contribution of zinc to reduce CD4+ risk factor for ‘severe’ infection relapse in aging: parallelism with HIV.”
The only reason why an HIV positive person would relapse is because of drug resistance or lack of compliance. As long as the virus is kept from replicating with HIV meds, their CD4 count will be as potent as yours or mine.
There exists a hierarchy of scientific literature sources. Pharmacology is not very high. It contributes to our understanding but it doesn’t create paradigms, provide pivotal shifts in our thinking nor get us jumping up and down.
Medical researchers use various literature search resources that are usually subscription based. My favorite is Web of Science.
https://login.webofknowledge.com/
If you are near a university, perhaps you can gain access
I have 2 areas of HIV in which I focus: HIV Associated Atherosclerosis and HIV Associated Neurocognitive Disorder (HAND – dementia and cognitive impairment due to undetectable HIV found in reservoirs like lymphatic tissue, CNS, cardiac cells and renal tissue). Bottom line: some viruses like COVID and HIV have their effects by remaining in tissues that can not be detected in the blood. This is why the issue of PCR and antibody tests for COVID is so important. One might test negative one day, but might test positive the next day. The numbers for COVID are bunk. Yet, to understand why you’d have to understand the BMS. Frankly, with Americans hooked on Facebook, Twitter and social media, our future looks really grim because, as you noted, learning is food for the soul.
I don’t want you to think I am minimizing the importance of sound nutrition. Minerals and vitamins are important. However, in America, malnutrition is rare, and deficiencies of essential nutrients is not very common if the person has a sound nutrition. As for Vitamin D deficiency, you don’t need to have a Vitamin D test to detect your levels. Get exposed to sunlight 15 minutes a day, and you’ll be fine. Since I’m from the Caribbean, I worship the sun..and the Son too.
Pax
Estovir,
“Why would they not be considered curative or therapeutic if they put a biochemical pathway back on track?”
“You are assuming the pathways is broken. If it were, the broken pathway would be manifest in every single tissue.”
While we are in some sense like a bathtub (one whole system), it is unclear that our human “bathtub” gets drained of micronutrients evenly out of all its tissues at the same rate. The body works very hard to keep sufficient magnesium in the blood, for instance, so that a serum test seems to indicate that there is no deficiency. However, there is research that shows that a normal serum test can occur while there is a deficiency in tissues, which is where most of the body’s stores of magnesium are held. So, a person could really be magnesium deficient, but their serum test isn’t indicative of that—which means that their magnesium deficiency is missed. This was an excellent paper on the subject of magnesium, manifestations of deficiency, testing, and treatment:
“However, despite renal conservation, magnesium can be pulled from the bone (as well as muscles and internal organs) in order to maintain normal serum magnesium levels when intakes are low.7 8 Thus, a normal serum magnesium level does not rule out magnesium deficiency, which predisposes to osteopaenia, osteoporosis and fractures.” DiNicolantonio JJ, O’Keefe JH, Wilson W. Subclinical magnesium deficiency: a principal driver of cardiovascular disease and a public health crisis. Open Heart. 2018.
“Recall that I wrote Glycolysis, TCA and ETC cycles occur in every single cell in the body. Thus, if a cofactor is missing that would “break” a pathway, you would see symptoms in every single tissue. Consequently, to argue that a GI problem is due to lack of ATP or ATPase is also to argue that that problem would be found in the legs, the heart, the ears, the brain, the fingers, etc.”
Type II diabetes often has manifestations beyond just blood glucose being outside proper parameters. Gastroparesis, retinopathy, skin infections and other skin problems, sleep problems, neuropathy, ADHD, and a whole host of concomitant problems go hand in hand with T2D. I do not have T2D, but I do have/had Hashimoto’s thyroiditis and I had rosacea. I was told that my rosacea would just have to be “managed” for the rest of my life. I got really sick after one of my kids was born; I was getting a lot of UTIs and other infections and had a long list of other non-specific health problems, too. Since my regular doctors weren’t giving me good answers (they just kept prescribing antibiotics), I chose to go to a Functional Medicine doctor. The doctor did a variety of tests, found that I had Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, and recommended I eliminate gluten and processed food, and, I was prescribed certain micronutrient and digestion-supporting supplements (I did eventually take thyroid medication when the darn thing proved to still be underactive). The rosacea and blepharitis I was told I’d just have to manage for the rest of my life just went away, along with the dry eyes and skin, night vision problems, forgetfulness, sleep problems, tics, and a bunch of other nasty non-specific problems. And, the last time the thyroid antibodies were checked, they were gone, too (I hope it stays that way, but, I am, apparently, now prone to autoimmunity).
“However, in America, malnutrition is rare, and deficiencies of essential nutrients is not very common if the person has a sound nutrition.”
Perhaps not for outright deficiencies so bad as to cause things like scurvy, rickets, and beriberi. However, I myself was badly insufficient in vitamin D, as was a friend of mine who was also deficient in Mg. Also, *most* people in the United States *do NOT* have sound nutrition. Most people eat a processed food-laden diet, which most certainly does NOT have adequate micronutrient content, and contains plenty of substances that also deplete micronutrients (like what the phosphoric acid in pop does to calcium). If most people had a sound diet, we wouldn’t have the rates of obesity and chronic disease that our country has.
Mazariegos-Ramos, E., et al. “Consumption of soft drinks with phosphoric acid as a risk factor for the development of hypocalcemia in children: a case-control study.” Journal of Pediatrics. June 1995.
“As for Vitamin D deficiency, you don’t need to have a Vitamin D test to detect your levels. Get exposed to sunlight 15 minutes a day, and you’ll be fine.”
That strikes me as rather inadequate, especially when some places are very, very cloudy, and, certain wavelengths are better absorbed than others. Also, if people are magnesium deficient, they aren’t going to effectively convert the D into its usable form. Once upon a time most people spent most of the day outdoors working. Humans have adapted to a great deal of sunshine. In places where sunshine is sparse, people have adapted by eating vitamin D rich fats—like cod liver oil in Nordic countries—or by encouraging their populations to get outside a lot.
“HAND – dementia and cognitive impairment due to undetectable HIV found in reservoirs like lymphatic tissue”
“some viruses like COVID and HIV have their effects by remaining in tissues that can not be detected in the blood”
Hmmm…seems you may be hinting at something I’ve been suspecting for about a year.
Estovir,
“some viruses like COVID and HIV have their effects by remaining in tissues that can not be detected in the blood”
I found one article speculating that periodontal pockets could be a reservoir location for SARS-CoV-2. What are you suspecting?
While HAART may reduce the occurrence of opportunistic infections in HIV by means of also major zinc bioavailability, supplementing zinc can be recommended in elderly people as resistance to infections.
I just saw this. I am not surprised the authors wrote that considering the type of journal. HAART does not reduce the occurrence of opportunistic infections per se. HAART restores the immune system by squashing the viral load in the blood. In other words, HAART provides a health immune system. You dont’ need zinc or any other mineral to to bulk up the immune system if you have a healthy nutrition. Be very careful with authors pushing ideas of increasing the amount of intake of minerals. Zinc is a metal. We only need trace amount of Zinc. Same applies for Iron. Iron is crucial for many reasons. However, to increase one’s intake at high levels would result in death. e.g. Hemachromatosis.
Eat a healthy sound nutrition and you’ll be fine.
Estovir,
“Be very careful with authors pushing ideas of increasing the amount of intake of minerals. Zinc is a metal. We only need trace amount of Zinc. Same applies for Iron. Iron is crucial for many reasons. However, to increase one’s intake at high levels would result in death. e.g. Hemachromatosis.”
Yes, caution is warranted, which is why, especially with some micronutrients, monitoring is warranted. Self-dosing and not telling a PCP is not wise. I found that I felt much better after supplementing with selenium, but, since that can get to toxic levels, my Functional Medicine doctor made sure to monitor the amount and my bloodwork while I took it. Increasing one’s intake of minerals at high levels is definitely foolish. But, that is not what many researchers are advocating. They are noting increasing supplemental intake in small, and if increasing is necessary, incremental doses.
“Eat a healthy sound nutrition and you’ll be fine.”
This will definitely go a long, long ways towards solving many problems. People are very confused, I think, about what constitutes ‘sound nutrition’, though. I think Weston Price is on the right track, as is Michael Pollan with his idea of ‘ Eat real food, mostly plants, not too much.’ The main point: eat real food.
However, even with a diet of sound nutrition, of real food, things like stress, pollution, lousy sleep, SNPs or other genetic factors, etc can get in the way of effective absorption and utilization of micronutrients.
If she’s afraid of somebody in the house to the point of wanting all weapons banned from the Legislative House she runs. might start asking herself what did “I” do wrong? Instead of blaming everyone else. How long before that well deserved fear spreads nation wide and Benita Pelosillyni turns into her namesake and the name becomes not a joke but a subject for the discussion of legal remedies before it does come true in practical terms. Just face up to Nancy. Ask yourself. Am I really deserving of what I brought into this chamber? Then accept the truth about yourself.. You aren’t the only one in government. Another who carries a pistol is Feinstein.Seems to be pandemic to California.
:
Gee, if her colleagues are the “enemies within” it sounds like Pelosi is hoping to “radicalize” another Progressive to do something like shoot up a bunch of Republicans on a baseball field. Incitement language? Impeach the Speaker!
Or did Pelosi mean the infiltration of Congress by Hamas sympathizers like Tlaib and Omar?
“Following the founding of Hamas in 1987, the Muslim Brotherhood set up worldwide committees to assist the newly formed terrorist group. In the US, it was called the Palestine Committee, and by the end of 1994, it would consist of four organizations, all falling under the leadership of then-global head of Hamas, Mousa Abu Marzook. Of the four, only one remains, CAIR. However, remnants of the others came together in the form of a more recent group, American Muslims for Palestine (AMP). Given AMP’s connection to a terrorist organization, why would Democrat officials, including US Representative Rashida Tlaib, go out of their way to aid and abet the group, and why isn’t the Democratic Party doing anything to stop this?”
“Israel bashing, anti-Semitism and incitement all seem to be condoned by the Democratic Party, whose abject failure to combat it within Democratic ranks has led to its acceptance as part of legitimate political discourse. It has been suggested that the huge spike in violence against Jews can be attributed to this phenomenon.
Unless Democrats take decisive action to purge their party of its Islamist fifth column – to which Rashida Tlaib and Rasha Mubarak are a part of – the Democratic Party will continue to be seen as promoting this dangerous trend and providing aid and comfort, as well as a safe haven, for the enemies of America and America’s friends and allies overseas.
Though it may already be a reality, Democrats must fight to stop their party from becoming/remaining the party of radical Islam.”
https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/2020/01/rashida-tlaib-and-rasha-mubarak-american-muslims-joe-kaufman/
I do not care if Democrats elect Muslims – Muslim americans have as much right to representation as anyone else.
What I care about is an ideology that thinks that the largest and most oppressive religion int he world is somehow the victims.
Fred Phelps is as vile a person as you can find among christian evangelicals.
But neither Phelps nor anyone in the West Borro Baptist church has ever killed anyone or blew anything up.
One of the problems with the left is that is more interested in grievances from a century or a millenia ago than the real problems of today.
John say, “ What I care about is an ideology that thinks that the largest and most oppressive religion int he world is somehow the victims.”
It seems to be the custom to pigeonhole an entire religion over the actions of their extremists. Muslims are no different than Christians. They too have their share of violent extremists. Timothy McVeigh blowing up a federal building. The KKK, bombing black churches. These are just two. Cherry-picking a few examples out of many only shows the bias against the Muslim religion. Religious liberty is important in this country, until it isn’t about the dominant one.
“Muslims are no different than Christians.”
Muslims today are no different from christians 1000 years ago.
“They too have their share of violent extremists.”
Not even close.
“Timothy McVeigh blowing up a federal building.”
True – is that something that occurrs every week, every year, every decade, every century ?
Further McVeigh’s motivation was political, not religious. McVeigh was not a white supremecist., He was specifically acting in response to Ruby Ridge and Wacco – GOVERNMENT abuses of power.
I am very concerned at this moment – the lawlessness of the election and lack of trust in government that exists right now dramatically increases the chance of a OKC bombing type event.
The behaviour or our govenrment regarding the Capital protests dramatically increases the odds of an OKC scale event.
I have repeatedly noted that the Capital was improperly locked down. That is a BIG DEAL.
If you do not want political protests to turn violent you MUST provide the opportunity for peaceful protests.
The more you try to restrict protests out of fear the more you empower the most violent of protestors.
Those of you on the left do not understand this. McVeigh was not “motivated” by some charasmatic leaders calls to violence.
He was motivated by the bad and repressive conduct of government.
“The KKK, bombing black churches.”
It is the 21st century not the 19th. The last church bombing is decades older than OKC.
Are we going to bring up grevances back to the 11th century ?
I would further note that though the KKK still exists – barely. Their apogee was a century ago.
They have not been consequential in many decades and diminishing for more than a century.
There are acts of islamic terrorism accross the world every day.
There are acts in the US every month.
There are serious acts in the US every year.
In the US more than 50% of political or religious violence is islamic tied and has been for decades.
That despite the fact that Muslims are 3% of the country at most.
“These are just two. Cherry-picking a few examples out of many only shows the bias against the Muslim religion.”
It is you that is cherry picking.
Just to be clear – I am not seeking to further empower government. Government is incapable of dealing with these problems.
Government effort to target islamic terrorism int he US have been absymal violations of rights, as well has horribly ineffective.
All past government effort to target groups by ideology, or religion have in the past been egregious and counter productive.
But just because I am as virulently opposed to the idiotic government infiltrations and setups of muslims as I am of alleged right wing groups does not mean that I am stupid enough to claim there is parity between them. There is NOT. It is not even close.
“Religious liberty is important in this country, until it isn’t about the dominant one.”
The only people I know seeking to restrict religious liberty are those on the left. This is not an argument about religious liberty.
It is about blindness and hypocrisy.
I do not want the FBI infiltrating ANY groups based on politics. ideology. or religion. There is a long disreputable history of the FBI doing that. I do not want the FBI “entrapping” any group – which they have repeatedly done with islamic teens, likely done with militant black groups, and appear to have done with Qanon. As I noted the FBI has a long disreputable history of this.
Regardless, my argument is that the LEFT is clueless. Students at liberty U whatever else you might think are less likely to abuse their wives, children, or bomb anything than your ordinary left wing nut. Much less your ordinary muslim.
All but a tiny fraction of Muslim’s in the US are more homophobic, more repressive of women, more repressive of almost all the victim groups the left fawns over then the members of the West Borro Baptist church.
Regardless, I am not particularly attacking islam. I am attacking the left for pretending that muslims are some victims of white oppression. You are clearly unable to see the world a it is.
All you do is demonstrate the colossal failure of an ideology rooted in victim status.
McVeigh was involved with numerous white racists on a personal level. This is just fact. One doesn’t know if he shared their beliefs or not, perhaps not, but he sure kept their company quite a bit
In fact he robbed banks with them. That’s a pretty close alignment. if we was not a racist, one wonders why he was so chummy with them. was he “undercover?”
Of course about 1/3 of that gang, the Midwestern Bank robbers aka the Aryan Republican army, were later proven to be federal informants or witnesses
One is pressed to wonder if perhaps McVeigh was an informant too
McVeigh wrote in a letter to his sister, quite some time before he was caught, that he was undercover for the government.
Funny how he did not bring that up in his trial. then again, he did not cooperate with his lawyer very much at all. he denounced his lawyer who then, freed from the privilege, wrote a whole book about the mess. Others Unknown
You can confirm this if you want, the information is out there
Don’t be so sure McVeigh wasn’t exactly what he told his sister that he was– a sheep dipped provocateur, pretending to be a militia nut and racist, working for the government itself.
a lot of work has been done on mcveigh. the questions just mount and mount. like why is that he reportedly washed out of army after a failed SF test– his excuse was he had a bad foot– but his bunk-mates claimed after the fact, that he had been in tip top shape? there are times when the mass media is an echo chamber of lies, facts are not checked until years later, and when the facts are later discovered to be false, nobody ever goes back and updates the picture. Well, c’est la vie!
……………….
We better hope there aren’t a lot more McVeighs out there, suckers who think they are doing their patriotic duty working for the government and up to their eyebals in extremely illegal and violent activities
NPR said during the day biden was sworn in, that they were bringing back “FBI people with experience in fighting dangerous extremists in the 90s.” Seems a scary prospect to me. Were they the same “experts” who gave us Ruby Ridge, Waco…. and maybe even OKC?
Sal Sar
Please, you demand I define freedom – what is a “white racist” ?
Are you saying that militias are inherently white racists ?
For any defintiion of white racist that is not variable over time there are fewer white racists today than 20 years ago, fewer than 20 years before that and fewer than 20 years before that.
When I was a child the KKK had cross burnings in my NORTHERN county that attracted thousands.
Today I doubt there are 500 KKK members in the country.
Actual american Nazi’s in uniform marched through my citing. Do any of those exist anymore ?
Your posts are all over the place. Sometimes they make sense. Most of the time they do not.
You do not appear to be on the left, but you are certainly as crazy as they are.
I am here posting that lawless government is a justification for insurrection.
But you are much more likely to light the match.
The FBI has been entirely incompetent at fighting any domestic groups.
It has completely failed to protect us from actual dangers, while constantly f’ing arround with people who are just different and want left alone.
Outside of McVeigh who was motivated by Ruby Ridge, I can not think of a single purported right wing domestic terrorist group that did not have a competely defensive posture.
The government went to war against Randy Weaver, David Koresch, the Bundies. and on and on – not the other way arround.
I would note that the Bundies and Weaver ultimately won in court – it was the FBI that was outside the law.
It is likely Koresch would have prevailed to – but he died.
Regardless, just about the last thing we need is more FBI stupidity.
Why would anyone give more power to Klinesmith, mccabe, strzok, comey ?
I would have no problem at all closing the FBI
Are there any grown ups left in Congress?
Let’s see, a member shows up at the door to the House chamber with a hand gun. One members has a video touting her toughness and ability to carry a hand gun around a city that bans hand guns. More than 100 members vote to disqualify the votes from states where Biden one, But only the votes for President, not the votes for Congressperson, Senator, dog catcher, only President. Yay, that makes sense.
I am no fan of Democrats, but the Repos have completely lost their collective mind in their support of the baby trump.
Most everyone knowns beyond any doubt the 2020 elections, the primaries & the 11/3 general elections, were complete frauds & thus this US Govt is completely illegitimate.
McConnell, Pelosi, Biden, D or R, same difference as none of this federal govt have the consent of the governed at this time.
I’m not sure what a solution would be but the 100 to 200 million Trump supports will hardly be supportive of any polities that come out of this govt.
Maybe the young guys/gals working “Game Stop” have learned a new way to make their voices heard?
I’m gone full retard with WSB crew
Today the brokerages showed blatant illegal collusion with hedge fund bilionaires by shutting down buying in GME AMC NOK and other names
Naked, illegal collusion. Lawsuits filed and “Game On” … this is just the beginning
Sal Sar
The Directors of the SEC’s Divisions of Examination and Trading & Markets have issued a joint statement to the effect that they are aware of the situation and reviewing the roles of various market participants including regulated entities.
SEC won’t do Crap once again for non Good Ole Boyz.
But the Good Ole Boyz club has a major problem this time as everyone can see more of their scams.
Everybody should stay out of this and let the market work.
Real misconduct will be punished by the market.
Hedge funds are betting one thing. The Redit traders another.
But it is the market as a whole that will ultimately decide who “wins”.
If Reditors drive the price above its real market price – whatever that is – they will be massacred when the price normalizes.
The same is true of hedge funds.
John say,
“ Everybody should stay out of this and let the market work.”
But not everyone stayed out of it. Hedge fund managers most likely pressured the owners of the apps to stop the retail investors from buying the stock. Hedge fund managers didn’t want the market to work because they would have been wiped out. Based on what the market is supposed to do is those who make bad decisions get punished and the punishment would have been getting wiped out. Billionaire hedge fund managers found themselves in the unenviable position of being wiped out by others who used their own tactics against them. They should have been quite a few fund managers suddenly out of their fortunes.
“ Real misconduct will be punished by the market.”. Nope. The market is rigged in favor of the big investors. They already claim that their own rules were used against them “unfairly”. Those with connections and influence intervened in the favor of hedge fund investors. The market is not going to punish them. It’s going to protect the status quo.
The redditors, had the upper hand, until hedge fund managers decided to cheat by pressuring the apps to shut down the sale of the stocks.
The SEC is the only entity that is going to be doling out the punishment. Not the market.
it’s not over. the small fry retail short squeezers won millions of new eyeballs of attention this week. the method is growing in popularity. its moment has arrived.
Big Tech will try and shut it up; captured regulators will pressure brokers to throttle back, the usual plutocratic powers will exert pressure to save their skins
in the end, if we win, we win.
and if we LOSE, we WILL win, even bigger
this is just one venue in many theatres of low intensity conflict
this will be a long haul
Sal sar
I am very reluctant to make long term predictions – beyond that we will see greater market volatility.
It is very wrong to try to layer morality into this.
There is absolutely no moral difference between the behavior of the reditors and the hedge funds.
You can cheer for the little guy. But in this instance their behavior was more dangerous and potentially destructive than what is alleged regarding the reditors.
It is not even clear who made the most money on this. Much of your analysis is static. It assumes the hedge funds only reacted by crying out for help.
If Hedge fund managers responded to the Reditors creation of a bubble with a 2nd large short – with near certainty they made/will make more as the bubble collapses then they lost.
Again layering moral claims on this is a mistake.
Alot of people made and lost alot of money – but I strongly suspect the biggest winners are likely many of the hedge funds.
Markets are not static. It is likely that Gamestops actual value is very close to where it started. Those who bet long on that value will make a fortune – in the long run.
“But not everyone stayed out of it.”
The most dangerous actor is government.
With respect tot he rest of what you argue – I do not know the facts – nor do you.
Nor mostly does it matter. I suspect much of what you say is correct – though not likely complete.
I doubt hedge fund managers have much influence over App Owners.
But I suspect they have influence over government.
“The market is rigged in favor of the big investors.”
If that is true why were the reditors so successful ?
“They already claim that their own rules were used against them “unfairly”.”
I do not care what people claim.
In a free market claims only matter if people change their actions.
The purpose of hedge fund managers claims – was not to influence investors,
it was to influence government.
I would further note that it is near certain that when the Reditors created a bubble in GameStop that those hedge fund managers you think are so evil – likely too a NEW short position on GameStop and many of them made back whatever they lost and more.
“Those with connections and influence intervened in the favor of hedge fund investors.”
Unless those “intervening” are govenrment I do not care.
“The market is not going to punish them.”
You are likely correct – more because the reditors overplayed their hand than anything else.
In the long run you win in the market by being correct about the value of a company – not by driving the price.
Hedge funds appear to have been driving the price below its value – though that will only be certain when we see the value in the future.
Reditors were driving the prive above its value. that is far more dangerous that what Hedge funds were doing.
trading was closed either because government hinted to the app owners, or because the app owners are not stupid and saw a flash crash coming where they would be blamed.
Regardless – leave things alot – let the reditors and hedge funds duke it out without government intervention.
“It’s going to protect the status quo.”
Of course it does – that is ALWAYS the case. It is very difficult to change the status quo – it is the status quo for a reason – because it works.
“The redditors, had the upper hand”
Only so long as they were not creating a bubble. Once that was clear they were in the same position as the hedge fund managers – only worse.
I do not know what hedge fund managers actually did, but If I had been running a hedge fund – as I saw the Game Stop bubble building, I would have take a new very strong short position, and I would have recouped any prior losses and then some when the bubble burst. Which was guaranteed.
“The SEC is the only entity that is going to be doling out the punishment. Not the market.”
Because you say say ?
The reditors just gave the hedge fund managers a clear lesson about trying to push the market.
That is a lesson by the market.
Conversely lots of people have been hurt by the bubble the reditors createed – that is the market punishing bad choices.
There is no need for the SEC to do anything.
How is what any of these people were doing morally distinct ?
Lets assume that Hedge Fund managers were deliberately driving GameStock down.
Those redit traders were deliberately driving the price up.
I think that the brokers should have stayed out of it.
But with absolute certainty people were going to get hurt.
It is far more dangerous to drive a price up than down.
If you drive a price Below its actual market value – it will rebound.
Anyone holding the stock will recover.
If you drive it above – anyone who bought at the peak is harmed and will not recover.
So long as those harmed are the actual gamblers – I am OK with that.
Nor do I care about hedge fund managers. They are probably investing my money – atleast indirectly.
John say, they are ALL gamblers. What happened was the Reddit investors made the better strategy. They used the same legal tactics hedge fund managers have used for years.
They should have been wiped out as a consequence of their own mistakes. That’s what the “free market” is supposed to do. Funny how they had to cheat in order to avoid the consequences of their decisions.
“they are ALL gamblers.”
Yes,
“What happened was the Reddit investors made the better strategy. They used the same legal tactics hedge fund managers have used for years.”
Correct. Except that “better strategy is a judgement”
I suspect that anyone who has bet long on Gamestop being valued very near where it started is the big winners here – and that is more likely to be the hedge funds than the reditors.
“They should have been wiped out as a consequence of their own mistakes.”
I do disagree that hedge fund managers that tried to Push short GS should lose their investment at the hands of the market.
Just as reditors who pushed GS into bubble teritories should lose their investment.
For many I expect that is exactly what will happen.
As I noted before If I was a hedge fund I would have hugely shorted GS the moment it was clear a bubble was forming.
Markets are not static. Hedge funds can lose Billions on their intial short, and make even more on the 2nd.
My understanding is that the Hedge Funds initially lost about 2B. But the bubble collapse cost investors about 11B.
Somebody bet on the bubble collapse – and made a killing. Probably the hedge funds.
“That’s what the “free market” is supposed to do.”
Close but not exactly. As I noted markets are not static. I have no problem with Hedge funds losing their first bet.
I also have no problem if they bet heavily against the GS bubble that formed and won – someone did.
” Funny how they had to cheat in order to avoid the consequences of their decisions.”
How did they cheat ?
One of your problems is you keep trying to make this about morality.
It is not. It is purely about getting the value of the stock correct.
Hedge Fund, Reditor, if you notice a stock is likely miss priced you have an oportunity to make money – possibly lots of it.
Ultimately those with the best perception of the real value of GS will make the most money.
I doubt that is the reditors – but I could be wrong GS could be worth an order of magnitude more than it was trading at.
wrong John short positions are inherently more dangerous than long ones. there is infinite downside
just let the market work. let the little guys like me gamble if we want. im not betting the farm on it
this week brokers took the side of the hedges in the most clearly unfair move in american financial history
there will be hell to pay., we wont forget.
AOC got on the right side of this, waiting for POTUS to tell these bigwigs to step back and take their medicine
sal sar
“wrong John short positions are inherently more dangerous than long ones. there is infinite downside”
False – the value of a stock can never go below zero.
“just let the market work. let the little guys like me gamble if we want. im not betting the farm on it”
I agree completely there.
“this week brokers took the side of the hedges in the most clearly unfair move in american financial history”
I guess you have not paid any attention to my posts.
I have zero interest in claims of “unfair”.
I do not know whether brokers made the right decision – I strongly suspect they did. I doubt they “took the side of hedge funds”.
I suspect they saw a huge bubble forming with disaster when it burst.
I suspect they acted because the brokers are exposed in a bubble.
“there will be hell to pay., we wont forget.”
Maybe, maybe not.
“AOC got on the right side of this, waiting for POTUS to tell these bigwigs to step back and take their medicine”
Any side that involves government action is the wrong side.
Regardless unless you actually beleive that GS is worth many many many times what it traded for a few months ago – then the big winners will be those who bet/are betting on the bubble bursting.
I have no problems with just letting the market work.
But if I were investing right now – I would be shorting GS.
And I strongly suspect the hedges funds you think need to take their medicine are doing exactly that.
If I am correct – the Hedge funds will be the big winners.
But maybe I am not.
Regardless, if you view th markets through a moral lens – you will likely get massacred.
This fight is about the actual value of GS, not who is punishing who.
“District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570”
In every election of a republican since atleast Reagan democrats have voted to not certify states that republican won.
In this instance there remains significant doubt over who won the election.
There is NO DOUBT that the election was conducted lawlessly.
It was possible at one time to fix those doubts. Democrats chose not to.
They not republicans are responsible for the lack of Trust in government.
Led By AZ Governor Doug Ducey, the Republican Governors Association is Committing Treason Against the People of the United States
Submitted by Dave Hodges on Thursday, January 28, 2021 – 15:52.
https://thecommonsenseshow.com/activism-agenda-21-conspiracy/led-az-governor-doug-ducey-republican-governors-association-committing-treason-against-people
Treason is defined in the constitution.
Just because the left has elevated everything they are unhappy with to a capital offense does not mean the rest of us should follow.
There is plenty of video showing myriads of democrats including party leaders saying far more inciteful things than Trump.
These are all shocking.
They are also legimate free speech.
John say, “ There is NO DOUBT that the election was conducted lawlessly.”
That “doubt” requires that there be proof in order to make the claim. What is your proof?
The various claims made about elections “conducted lawlessly “ have already been dispelled and shown to be false. Pennsylvania’s Supreme Court and Wisconsin’s both explained in great detail why.
These false claims are no longer relevant due to the evidence showing their falsity.
Show me one example and I can show you why it’s false or misleading.
We have been over this.
The state constitutions were not followed – there is much more lawlessness.
But that alone ends the debate.
You can rant on all you want.
No the PA SCOTUS nor the WI SCOTUS did not dispell this – both as a matter of what they found and as a matter of fact.
If the US Supreme court ruled that the first amendment was meaningless and that people could be arrested and jailed for insulting politicians – something that happens in much of the world, all that would do would be to destroy trust in Government and the courts.
Government does not ultimately get to decide on its own whether it is lawful or not.
We expect the courts to get it right – which they did not, because failing to do so brings us closer to insurrection.
Regardless, your argument is both wrong and circular.
The court decisions you cite did NOT prove the election was lawful.
Because the courts FAILED to enforce the law and constitutions and in many instance made up new law on their own.
The courts INCREASED the lawlessness.
Trust in government is an an all time low. That is the direct consequence of lawlessness.
The authority and legitamcy of govenrment comes from the consent of the governed
NOT the consent of the courts.
Government is not self legitimizing.
That is called totalitarianism.
I have noted that 5 of the 6 swing states constitutionally require secret ballots.
In person voting is ONE of several prerequisites for secret ballots.
You can look up the state constitutions for each of these states.
These provision came about because of massive election fraud in the 19th century.
If we did not get that fraud in large scale in 2020 – we will soon enough if we continue.
Anytime a voter can fill in a ballot outside of a poll where third parites can coerce or induce their vote, that vilates secret ballot laws and constitutional provisions.
This is just one of many lawless aspects of the 2020 election.
You are on the wrong side of the facts and the law.
Nancy can bring her own gun if she wants.
In 1854 two members of the house nearly got into a gunfight on the house floor.
They had quite the honor culture back then. We have Adam Schi!!
Nancy Pelosi is clearly unfit to hold elective-office.
The members of the 117th congress that re-elected her as speaker of the house and those persons residing in California’s 12th congressional district who have repeatedly voted to re-elect her to congress need to have their heads examined.
Nancy is a vain, divisive and petty ideologue posing as a leader.
Nancy would not know leadership if Athena descended from the heavens and pinched her.
Nation before politics Nancy.
I like the demeanor of Biden as president
What demeanor would that be. I haven’t seen him unscripted without handlers stepping in and shutting down any extemporaneous exchanges with anybody.
It borders on lying to continue the delusion that Biden is anything but a figure head, well in the grips of dementia. His words are not his words. How long is the nation going to allow this fraud?
Were are all the stories about cluelessness and ineptitude that peppered the Trump administration.
Psaki has had a really bad start – as has the administration as a whole.
Much of this is normal. But it was not painted as normal 4 years ago.
There were stories all over about how inept those crafting Trump’s EO’s were – now Biden’s are being shot down for EXACTLY the same reasons. Biden did not follow the APA, he did not provide actual reasons for his EO, and on and on.
And why aren;t we impeaching Biden – the EO to “pause” deportations is a violation of his oath of office.
Biden has ordered Border Patrol and ICE to disobey the law. that is pretty much NOT upholding the law and constitution.
If you do not like our law on deportations CHANGE IT.
Either Bidens EO is facially unconstitutional, or the US Immigration law he is ordering CBP to disobey is unconstitutional.
There is not a third choice.
What demeanor would that be.
How Biden can’t locate his breast pocket to put his pen in. You know, the thing.
Conservatives are to be hunted down, disgraced, banished from ever again participating in government affairs. They must be purged from any position of responsibility in Commerce, Military, Education, and Government. They should be sterilized so that they can not reproduce! ZEIG HEIL ! Der Gavel Meister has spoken!
Commie Fascist type Nutters gone wild.
Short Video:
The Hunt For Conservatives Has Begun
18,455 views
Jan 21, 2021
https://banned.video/watch?id=600a21b9710e69036d9f22ef
Well they got 75 millions to choose from i guess. if not more. The harder and faster they go, the bigger the backlash.
Biden being careful, but the BILLIONAIRES ARE GOIN FOR BROKE
between us and them, it’s GAME ON
I don’t think 800 some fatcats stand a chance against tens of millions. We WILL get them in the end. Today their lackeys stand firm but over time their alliance WILL erode.
Did you see AOC and Cruz agreed today about the shameful collusion between robinhood and the hedge funds?
hallelujah, that’s promising!
Sal Sar
I find the entire GameStop thing hillarious.
I have no personal view on what the value of Gamestop stock should be.
But all that the reditter’s have done is demonstrate they are no different from the Hedge Fund managers.
Let them duke it out.
Though no – it appears that “the empire” has stepped in. We can not let the markets work. It is critical for Democrats to put their thumb on the scales to protect Billionaires.
To be clear – I do not think that the actions of the Reditt Traders are morally or ethically distinguishable from those of short sellors.
They are neither good nor evil. Absent evidence of insider trading each group is as entitled to try to push a stock in their direction.
That is just part of how the free market works.
Winning or losing in the market place makes you more or less successful.
It does not make you more or less moral.
The “fever” hasn’t broken, and we need to accept that the patient is probably terminal.
When is this Pleistocene age of politicians in mental decline going to pack in their false teeth and give it a rest? File Pelosi under “Get a Net”.
Shame on anyone with their full faculties, who allows this pathetic pandering from these embedded kleptocrats to fake them out by playing to the narrative d’jour , in order to stay in power only to live to cover up their past crimes and continue to filch more wealth to themselves.
How much oil is the ruling class willing to pour on this fire in order to prevent honest people with deep concerns for this country from finding out that this hatred has been deliberately cultivated in order to stop any cooperation or collaboration, and abandon the kill/crush/destroy model? Who benefits? Besides our foreign enemies, who benefits domestically besides the lice in the establishment? The enemy of the Nancy Pelosi’s is civil discourse, and it’s what we need to be about. The establishment can’t afford to let Americans have intelligent civil discourse and find out that most Americans don’t resemble the manufactured stereotypes that they have created, the cartoons of ourselves. It must have chapped their hides when there were ZERO subsequent demonstrations in the State Capitols after the DC rampage. With no organization, disappointed and angry Republicans simply turned their back on Biden on January 20 refusing to give them the satisfaction of another public display.
So now, Pelosi et al, are trying to pretend that it happened anyway. Guess they weren’t as stupid or hysterical as they were portrayed to be.
https://youtu.be/mG1qJeDI9Ok?t=2855
The terrorists are going to surround the Capitol with enema bags.
Fine with me.
I think that Republicans should match the “wall of moms” with a Wall of GrandMom’s – with walkers.
Lets see what happens when the capital police start beating up 60 year olds.
That would raise global sea-level faster than climate change ever could.
What is it with your compulsive need to add that “the right does it too” to every critical article on the Left’s fascism? I’ve not once heard any Republican make anything like the insane comments Nancy makes regularly about Republicans. She’s an unhinged, half batty old bag who should be playing with her grandkids.
I would further note this is all one directional.
Pelosi is somehow justified in whatever stupid thing she does – so long as someone on the right sometime in history did something half as bad.
But Pelosi calls for actual violence and insurection – and no one even notes it.
Trump calls for peaceful protest – and left wing nuts impeach him.
What’s amusing about that is that Natacha, Gainesville, and Fishwings fancy he’s a Trump shill.
Turley writes:
“It precisely the type of rhetoric that many of us condemned when used by former President Donald Trump.”
What a croc. Show us that column.
Meanwhile Pelosi is stating facts. GOP leadership needs to get a leash on some of it’s members and here’s a hint: If someone believed in QAnon, they are clearly deranged or idiots or both. We have at least 2 of this type and that’s not all they’ve done to earn the leash.
I do not care if the GOP leadership wishes to mandate that its members wear pistols in the Capital.
I do not are if the GOP membership wishes to manadate that every GOP representative must start every public statement with “Stolen Election”
Pelosi is not god.
And neither you nor she would know a fact if it burned its way into your brain.
Republicans are the opposition party – they are free to oppose in every legal way they wish.
Democrats burned civility to the ground, they are not entitled to it.
“If Some one Beleived in Qanon”
What of those who not only beleived but sold the Collusion Delusion ?
What of those who claimed to have evidence but never produced any ?
What of those who slept with Chinese Spies ?
What of those who impeached someone for asking for an OBVIOUSLY legitimate investigation ?
What of those who shutdown the capital to keep the people out ?
What of those who sold us all Russian disinformation from the Steel Dossier ?
I have little interest in Qanon.
But the booby prize for buying and selling faux conspiracy theories inarguably goes to the left.
QANON was very damaging to Trump. He was very stupid for winking at it.
I suspect it was a CIA disinformation plot . Or maybe just Brennan or such like cooked it up on his own and had somebody do it like an independent contractor. But it was very very damaging
Sal Sar
AFAICT, babble about QAnon is a diversion for liberals of the sort who watch Madcow. There’s on on our Facebook roster, a tool of a man currently employed as a clergyman. I doubt aught but a single-digit minority have ever heard of it (or know anything about it if they have heard of it).
Qanon had wide social media reach, and it sucked in a lot of people who should have known better
there is no substitute for hard work when it comes to winning elections. This is the one thing Democrats have been good at for like goin back to Tammany Hall or so
Republicans tend to be the sort of person who has a constant hope that things will turn around magically, somehow. Im that way myself.
By contrast, Democrat workers and party volunteers, tend to be the kind of people who understand human agency is what makes things happen, not vain hope
Qanon was a virulent form of hopium that snookered a lot of Republican types into believing there was some Ace in the hole when there was not
The Republicans need to be more serious about the boring work of elections, and seriously consider building a real party infrastructure, and put the time and money into doing it and getting it done properly.
They have rarely invested in the human infrastructure of the party as they should. Certainly Trump was not that much better. But, at least he had more of a sense of the people, though he too failed to improve the human resource management track record
Winking at vain hopes such as Qanon hoped worked to the detriment of the hard and boring work that had to be done. To some degree elections are a game and if Republicans want to win they better learn the basics and and how to execute them consistently
Sal Sar
“Qanon had wide social media reach, and it sucked in a lot of people who should have known better”
It did ? I heard of is long ago, but that was it. I did not know until I looked it up that it is tied to Epstein.
I have lots of very conservative friends. I doubt any could tell you much about Qanon besides that it exists.
“there is no substitute for hard work when it comes to winning elections. This is the one thing Democrats have been good at for like goin back to Tammany Hall or so”
Democrats did NOT work hard at this election – they had absolutely no ground game at all. They focused entirely on legal battles and assuring that the election was lawless.
“Republicans tend to be the sort of person who has a constant hope that things will turn around magically, somehow. Im that way myself.”
In this election Republicans turned out record numbers of voters who voted in person.
These is little doubt that if the election had been conducted normally – trump would have massacred Biden and Democrats would have lost the house and the Senate.
This election did NOT turn on covid. But it did turn on democrats ability to use a crisis to go lawless.
“By contrast, Democrat workers and party volunteers, tend to be the kind of people who understand human agency is what makes things happen, not vain hope”
Again that is NOT what happened in this election. BTW Democrats even traditionally have few volunteers. Republicans volunteer.
Democrat election workers are paid.
“Qanon was a virulent form of hopium that snookered a lot of Republican types into believing there was some Ace in the hole when there was not”
Again that is not consistent with the facts. Qanon may be a bit of conspiratorial lunacy, but misrepresenting it does not help understand anything.
Further Qanon is a small part of the GOP, While it was a more significant factor in the Captial protests, particularly in their getting out of hand, The protests were happening even if there was no Qanon. And the protesters were required to be allowed into the capital.
When government is isolating itself from the people – the government is in trouble.
“The Republicans need to be more serious about the boring work of elections, and seriously consider building a real party infrastructure, and put the time and money into doing it and getting it done properly.”
Again you are clueless about real elections. Republicans and democrats do not do things the same.
This election was actually a failure for democrats. What are the odds that 2022 and 2024 will have some crisis they can exploit.
There is going to be a holy war over election integrity – That is part of what HR 1 is about. It should also be self evident that the democratic election strategy for 2020 Does no scale down to congress and legislatures – it is my understanding that while Democrats held on by the skin of their teeth in the house – that they did very badly in state legislatures.
The democratic model for 2020 is incredibly expensive, will not give them the congress and legislatures.
It is near critical for democrats to pass something like HR 1 to force states to continue the disasterous mess that was required for them to survive 2020 – and make no mistake 2020 was really bare survival by democrats.
Republicans have lost substantial ground in election integrity in 2020. It is going to take a long time to restore the rule of law to elections. But it is near certain that democrats will NOT get the same conditions they did in 2020 again.
Only the future will tell, but my suspicion is this election is Gettyburg for the Democratic party – this is as good as it gets.
They had every single advantage and still eeked out a narrow victory in a few places.
There is only one significant issue for Republicans – that is that Trump drew millions of new voters to the GOP and their committment to him was strong. in 2022 and 2024 Republicans can not afford to lose much of the 2020 vote.
It is highly unlikely that democrats can duplicate 2020.
“They have rarely invested in the human infrastructure of the party as they should. Certainly Trump was not that much better. But, at least he had more of a sense of the people, though he too failed to improve the human resource management track record”
Again you have things backwards. It is true that democrats are more professional than republicans – democratic politics is completely paid professionals. That is why it is so expensive. Republican politics is mostly volunteers and it is far less expensive.
“Winking at vain hopes such as Qanon hoped worked to the detriment of the hard and boring work that had to be done.”
Qanon is inconsequential.
“To some degree elections are a game and if Republicans want to win they better learn the basics and and how to execute them consistently”
You are correct that Republicans are constantly following democrats. Democrats pioneer numerous things in both government and elections. Some of the things that democrats pioneer are “good”, But democrats have an ends justify the means approach.
Republicans never would have eliminated the filibuster for presidential nominees – but when democrats pushed it through, republicans took capitalized. The game playing with Meritt Garland and ACB are not outside of past norms, but it is till unlikely that Republicans would have moved forward but for Democrats prior ends justifies the means tactics.
The attack on Kavanaugh backfired. Most democratic actions ultimately backfire.
I have noted above that I do not think that Democrats will be able to conduct another election this way.
But lets assume I am wrong – legislatures and courts do not fix the lawlessness in our elections.
The alternative to republcans restoring lawful elections is to capitalize on the lawlessness.
It is fairly trivial for a very small number of less than ethical republican operatives to cheaply wreak havoc on all future democratic elections. The fact that democrats are so geographically concentrated makes both fraud by them and fraud targetting them far easier.
Trust is really important. And democrats both in govenrment and out of government have taken the ends justifies the means to a level that one way or the other it will fail. the rule of law will be restored – OR republicans will use democrats tactics against them.
One of the things 2020 demonstrated is that the Republican base is much stronger than the democratic base.
This election would not have been close but for the lawlessness – even if there was little fraud.
Is there anyone think that the mailin couch potatoes would have voted in person for Biden – even without Covid ?
Democrats are in serious trouble. Again either lawful elections will be restored or republicans will take advantage of the lawlessness.
Either way democrats lose.
The FBI was most definitely “monitoring” Qanon.
The question is whether the FBI was goading Qanon,
or ever whether the FBI actually IS Qanon.
Sorry JT, But Biden’s periodic calls to unity DO NOT alter the fact that he is PERSONALLY as bitterly devisive as the rest of the left.
Regardless, we are all tired of the press painting the same thing different ways as suits their politics.
There is no actual evidence of rising white nationalism in this country. There is no evidence of a significant domestic terror threat – outside of Antifa.
The left is terrified that the “next” capital protest will be more successful – that protestors will succeed in occupying the capital and shitting it down – as the left has done many many times in the past.
Regardless, all efforts to quash dissent will drive us toward more violence.
The Green Zone around the Capitol is being made permanent.
Yup, lets protect the government from the people.
GOOD. It is a reminder that the regime relies for existence on armed force and the veneer of legitimacy is falling away.
This dynamic once it’s underway, is very hard to stop. It may run all the way
Sal Sar
Amen and Awomen!
She has looked at the enemy and it is her (with apologies to Pogo)
Dear God, what are they putting in the food in the House cafeteria?
https://www.history.com/topics/germany/reichstag-fire
Ergot