Sen. Elizabeth Warren, D-Mass., is under fire for her statement to Joy Reid on MSNBC explaining why Luigi Mangione allegedly murdered UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. Warren explained that this was a “warning ” that “you can only push people so far.” After a public outcry, Warren walked back her statement. Yet, the statement captures the growing radicalism on the left, particularly among anti-capitalist, Democratic Socialists, and other groups. It is also notable how many of the same political and media figures who were apoplectic and unrelenting over the false claim about Trump’s “fine people on both sides” statement are largely disinterested in this and other extreme comments on the left.
Reid has long been criticized for racist and extremist commentary. Warren seemed eager to play to the far-left audience after first noting that “Violence is never the answer,” but then adding the warning to others that “you can only push people so far, and then they start to take matters into their own hands.”
The senator explained that
“the visceral response from people across this country who feel cheated, ripped off, and threatened by the vile practices of their insurance companies should be a warning to everyone in the health care system.
Violence is never the answer, but people can be pushed only so far. This is a warning that if you push people hard enough, they lose faith in the ability of their government to make change, lose faith in the ability of the people who are providing the health care to make change, and start to take matters into their own hands in ways that will ultimately be a threat to everyone.”
The comments came after various pundits and citizens celebrated the killing, including the former Washington Post journalist Taylor Lorenz, who expressed “joy” over the murder (only to walk that back like Warren). Some have defended Lorenz and explained how, while they may not express joy, they understand where “she is coming from” in celebrating the murder of a healthcare executive.
Wanted posters have appeared throughout New York with the images of other CEOs (and of Thompson with a red X across his face).
It is the same moral relativism that we have long seen in higher education on the left where violent rhetoric against conservatives or capitalists is common.
As previously discussed, such statements include professors writing about “detonating white people,” abolish[ing] white people, denouncing police, calling for Republicans to suffer, strangling police officers, celebrating the death of conservatives, calling for the killing of Trump supporters, supporting the murder of conservative protesters and other outrageous statements.
We also discussed the free speech rights of University of Rhode Island professor Erik Loomis, who defended the murder of a conservative protester and said that he saw “nothing wrong” with such acts of violence. (Loomis, who has written for the New York Times, was later made Director of Graduate Studies of History at Rhode Island).
It is unclear if Mangione’s anti-capitalist views brought him into contact with known violent groups on the left, including Antifa. Just days before the murder, I wrote about how a liberal media site was selling Antifa products in celebration of the anti-free speech, violent group.
The different treatment given the statements of Trump and Warren are striking. Notably, the false claim received endless coverage and is still reported by the media despite being debunked. The Charlottesville controversy occurred at the start of Trump’s presidency and showed how the media was not interested in whether stories were true in the shift to open advocacy journalism.
What was evident to many of us listening was that Trump was referring to the debate over the removal of controversial historical statutes and noting that there were “very fine people on both sides.” As Snopes belatedly recognized years later, “while Trump did say that there were ‘very fine people on both sides,’ he also specifically noted that he was not talking about neo-Nazis and white supremacists and said they should be ‘condemned totally.'”
None of that mattered (or continues to matter to some) in the media because the narrative was better than the facts. Many in the media did not even acknowledge that Trump denied the spin given by his opponents and said that he was referring to the underlying issue of the protest. The statement was treated as demonstrably and unequivocally endorsing violence. It is the same reason why the statement of Warren and many on the left have not been given the same level of public condemnation even in the face of an actual murder. It does not fit the narrative.
Many celebrated Warren’s warning and the implied rationalization for the murder. Others praised her gutsy take.
The far-left publication The New Republic reported the Warren statement in positive terms in an article titled “Senator Elizabeth Warren had an awfully real reaction to the shooting of the UnitedHealthcare CEO.”
TNR has been one of the promulgators of this story and attacked Trump in 2024 in what it called a “new” defense over his comments despite the fact that he has always maintained that he was referring to the overall protest over the monument. TNR also attacked Snopes for its fact check and “helping Trump.”
As I discuss in my book, “The Indispensable Right: Free Speech in an Age of Rage,” politicians use rage rhetoric to ride waves of public anger and garner supporters on the extremes of our political system. The same motive has led some Democratic leaders to embrace Antifa in the past. However, these establishment figures often find that being embraced as a revolutionary today often means that you are viewed as a reactionary tomorrow by the same radical allies in these movements.
Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law at George Washington University. He is the author of “The Indispensable Right: Free Speech in an Age of Rage.”
UnitedHealth Group Profits Hit $22 Billion In 2023.
$22,000,000,000, how many people have paid a with their health that UHG was able to rake in $22 billion is profit. Its sickening. Why does a corp. need so much profit?
All possible on the backs of people.
Isn’t capitalism grand!
We were promised we wouldn’t have to spend one thin dime for Obamacare. That we would SAVE $2500. a family. Obama lied, and people died. Put the blame where it belongs. Get GOVERNMENT out of healthcare, and let there be competition…and prices would come down.
“God give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.”
– Serenity Prayer
____________________
Sen. Elizabeth Warren, D-Mass, aka “Pocahontas,” should understand that the Constitution exists to provide freedom to Americans—freedom, free enterprise, free industries, and free markets sans governmental interference—to allow Americans to “pursue happiness” while it provides the recourse of a system of courts for criminal prosecution and civil litigation to obtain redress for grievances.
Luigi Mangione was young.
Luigi Mangione enjoyed the freedom to establish a healthcare insurance enterprise to compete with UnitedHealthcare and provide the best product at the lowest price.
To compete—to “build a better mousetrap”—is not what he did.
UHC released a statement that Mangione had never been insured by the company.
What a tragedy for the Thompsons.
Duke lacrosse rape accuser now admits she made the whole story up. Wanted “validation.” Didn’t give a shit about how it would affect people falsely accused of rape, let alone a racially motivated rape. What an a’h0le.
Biden can still pardon all democrats for any and all crimes for all times?
so democrats have pushed America?
Where is our melting pot when so much our economy demand division?
There would be no race industry but for dividing race – there would be no family law industry but for dividing vamily. There would be no domestic violence industry but for violation of the castle to benefit the former. We have divider problem – because its lucrative. End thrHe systemic division – and America will be great!
I used to be a conservative – believed in family and marriage – until the cops barged into my home took down my husband as the male – then deployed their paranoid straw man to charge me with violence under he feared “harrSsment. There is something else afoot. That doesn’t care about our fourth or fundamentals. The ppl in power won’t hesitate to destroy to stay in power!
Insurance executives are in a no-win situation. If they are too generous in paying benefits, the majority of subscribers (who do not have accidents) complain about the resultant high premiums. If they deny coverage, the minority of subscribers who do have accidents will complain about the hard-heartedness of the executives. Power-hungry intellectuals like Pocahontas know of the impossible situation of the insurers, and flan the flames of resentment in order to increase a demand for government takeover of the insurance industry. They promise that when people like they are in control, the inevitable tension between premium-payer and premium-beneficiary will somehow disappear and everyone will be happy. Of course, the opposite result will be achieved: higher premiums with lower benefits.
* Warren has that same gun to her head. They all do. She, Pelosi, Schumer, Biden etc all know where the violence is. Warren is a coward. They’re well aware of Trump’s brush with death.
The posters with faces says just how deranged it really is.
Mangione is a guy.
“Mangione is a guy.”
Why do you say stupid shit that makes no sense?
There is hope for America! They are making cool toy soldier and armor sets again!
https://www.amazon.com/BMC-CTS-WW2-Battle-Bulge/dp/B0DG51QDGS
Maybe if the insurance companies hadn’t been forced to pay millions for this trans BS, other procedures would be covered. Obozo did a lot of damage to the insurance industry.
Not to mention the millions of illegals Biden invited in…
Warren and any other apologist for Luigi (murderer of Thompson) is disgusting. She has no concept of criminality if she actually believes that a person can reasonably be motivated to take the life of someone he doesn’t know based upon frustration or hate. She is totally out of touch with reality.
We need some mojo thoughts here
CSX freight train hits a M107 Paladin Howitzer mobile tank. But it’s not a tank…..Or is it? And who’s fault is it? CSX, shipper, or DOD?
Anonymous,
The basic answer to your question is the driver of the semi is at fault for the collision. The reason is that under federal and state law, trains have authority (right of way) over motor vehicles and pedestrians at grade crossings, meaning that all motor vehicles must yield to an oncoming train when the train is about to enter the crossing. I believe this is covered under 49 USC 20151. The railroad is still required to (where appropriate) make use of red warning lights, gates, bells or horns, and the train operator must (unless exempted by law) use their warning horn on approach of the crossing. Vehicles and pedestrians must always yield right of way to trains on crossings, along lengths of tracks and such and are required to obey signage, signals, or railroad flagmen.
If the railroad does not use the proper warning signals, or they are not functioning, or the train operator does not use the horn when required it might be a mitigating factor or subject the railroad to a measure of liability but this is not absolute. (from a traffic investigation framework)
From the video I could not determine, due to the angle and the sun shade on the red signals on the gantry, if they were lit as the train approached. But the gate for oncoming traffic was down.
I suspect the reason this collision happened was because the driver of the semi did not take into account the height of the grade crossing. He was pulling a “low boy” type of trailer that was heavily laden with the tank. Low boys are notorious for getting high-centered on sudden changes in elevation of the street, such as happens at grade crossings. Likely the driver was in the clear to make the crossing but the low point of the trailer scraped the street then momentum carried it forward until it wedged itself, high-centered itself and was stuck. The weight of the tank made the trailer immoble since the engine might not be powerful enough to free it. Eventually, the train came along and struck the trailer. The gate at the right is in a part way position. It might have lowered itself then struck the tank.
The fed law prohibits “(3)to drive through a grade crossing with passive warning signs without ensuring that the grade crossing could be safely crossed before any train arrived” and allows for a civil and or criminal penalties to be assessed. I supsect it will be left either to the CSX railroad police or the local authorities to issue a citation, but there is probably going to be a lack of intent to violate the law on behalf of the driver but it would instead be a matter of recklessness or negligence for not anticipating the short distance height change of the street which might have led to the high-centering and a later collision. The driver should have anticipated this with low boy trainers, assuming of course that was in this case the proximate cause of the collision.
Darren, excellent observation and summation.
This M107 tank wouldn’t last long in the Ukraine east front line.
The MUTCD (Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices for streets and highways) 11th edition has signage for this condition on page 1002. PDF version here : https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/pdfs/11th_Edition/mutcd11theditionhl.pdf . (large download). It gives you an idea at how frequent a collision such as in the video occurs, when the MUTCD contains a sign for it.
Here’s the sign:
Speaking of trains, I just came across this! Train conductor, serial killer! The basis for Crazy Train –
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/_6hvzrIbIiA
Sounds very similar to Rush Limbaugh’s comments about black singers. Maybe Warren listed to Rush?
Rush Limbaugh’s comments about black singers???
Jonathan: Why is it that when you want to attack someone you always start with the claim that person is “under fire”? Now it’s Elizabeth Warren for her comments about the killing of Brian Thompson, the CEO of United Health Care. Except for you and others on the right who else has criticized Warren? Can’t find anybody. Warren clearly told Joy Reid that “Violence is never the answer” but that’s what happens when “you push people so far…”. What did she mean by that statement?
We don’t know all the motives behind the killing. But the alleged killer, Luigi Mangione, apparently was motivated by the way Thompson and other health insurers treat their policy holders. United and other private health insurance companies make/save money by denying medical care. Almost everyone has a horror story about being denied coverage for some procedure under a private insurance policy. It starts with deductibles, co-pays. Then there are denials for going out-of-network. Then every policy has fine exclusions that are used to deny coverage. If you want to appeal a decision to deny coverage it’s a lengthy and frustrating experience–which many times ultimately results in denial of coverage.
Warren has been focusing on the sad state of the health care system in this country for years. We have the most expensive health care system in the world. Warren and Bernie Sanders have called for a universal health care system–“Medicare for all”. Polls show the public overwhelmingly supports such a system. Every other major industrialized country in the world has it. So why don’t we have it here?
It’s because private health insurers and their Republican allies in Congress oppose it. The health care industry spends millions lobbying to prevent the the enactment of legislation by Warren, Sanders and others in Congress. That’s because it would cut into their profits. Last year United Health Care made $22 billion in profits. It paid Brian Thompson $10.2 million, plus stock grants, to lead the industry fight against the proposals by Warren and others.
This why a lot of the public is sympathetic to Mangione. Brian Forte, a former Green Party candidate for Congress from New Jersey, expressed the feelings of many of the public: “Currently, over 1,000 people go bankrupt daily, solely due to personal medical bills. Anyone who can make millions of dollars overseeing a system like this, and sleep well at night, doesn’t deserve my sympathy”.
Of course, the killing of Brian Thompson can’t be justified. And I suspect we won’t see any CEO of any health insurance company walking around the streets of NY or any other city any more–at least not without heavy security protection that will be paid for by policy holders. What a sad state of affairs! Perhaps, in a way, Thompson’s demise could serve a useful purpose. To get us to focus on the broken health care system in this country that needs immediate attention–to prevent the killing of another health insurance CEO. Had we implemented a “Medicare for all system” years ago there wouldn’t be any Brian Thompsons to shoot dead in the street!
Dennis McIntyre lost thoroughly and completely but engages in repeated self flagellation by coming back to the Turley blog incessantly.
Apparently, Dennis may suffer from borderline personality disorder and other mental pathologies.
It may be beneficial for Dennis to refrain from his schizophrenic self-harm and visit Daily Kos, Mother Jones, etc.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
“Chronic self-punishment is characteristic of a number of mental illnesses, such as borderline personality disorder, depression, and eating disorders. So the next time you feel the urge to suffer for your sins, consider other ways of coping that can give you the same benefits without causing further pain. Some ideas: practice self-compassion and self-forgiveness, try to repair damaged relationships and learn from your mistakes.”
– Psychology Today
Dennis does not practice “self-flagellation”. He gets beaten up repeatedly by others when opining on this website.
And he likes it, apparently.
The killer is a rich, white privileged 26 year old male. How was he “pushed?”
He was radicalized during his Ivy League “lived experience.”
He planned a murder of an innocent man, obtained an illegal weapon and killed in cold, premeditated blood.
He is no hero. His life is forever ruined. The victim is dead. His wife lost her husband and his children lost their father. The killer’s family name is forever ruined.
Plain and simple, he is a murder. No hero.
He is no hero. His life is forever ruined.
The DA is Alvin Bragg. Dont bet on him ruining the Left’s latest hero
Using Warren’s argument, imagine if people started murdering politicians like Warren because they are fed up with them and “you can only push people so far”. This is what a society without fear of God does: everything is self-referential and relativistic like atheistic nations have shown (e.g. Stalin’s USSR, Mao’s China, etc) who have killed more people in one century than all previous centuries combined. Americans are getting exactly what they wished: they succumbed to their vices. The comments on here is just that: unbridled vices
NB: if Americans were healthy they could prevent most of their chronic health conditions and put insurance companies out of business. Vices rule Americans just like in the Roman Empire in its final years
the Romans have been by them overwhelmed with the only, or at least the greatest, of all calamities — the corruption of manners, and the vices of the soul.
I will therefore pause, and adduce the testimony of Sallust himself, whose words in praise of the Romans (that equity and virtue prevailed among them not more by force of laws than of nature) have given occasion to this discussion. He was referring to that period immediately after the expulsion of the kings, in which the city became great in an incredibly short space of time. And yet this same writer acknowledges in the first book of his history, in the very exordium of his work, that even at that time, when a very brief interval had elapsed after the government had passed from kings to consuls, the more powerful men began to act unjustly, and occasioned the defection of the people from the patricians, and other disorders in the city. For after Sallust had stated that the Romans enjoyed greater harmony and a purer state of society between the second and third Punic wars than at any other time, and that the cause of this was not their love of good order, but their fear lest the peace they had with Carthage might be broken (this also, as we mentioned, Nasica contemplated when he opposed the destruction of Carthage, for he supposed that fear would tend to repress wickedness, and to preserve wholesome ways of living), he then goes on to say: “Yet, after the destruction of Carthage, discord, avarice, ambition, and the other vices which are commonly generated by prosperity, more than ever increased. If they increased, and that more than ever, then already they had appeared, and had been increasing”. And so Sallust adds this reason for what he said. For, he says, “the oppressive measures of the powerful, and the consequent secessions of the plebs from the patricians, and other civil dissensions, had existed from the first, and affairs were administered with equity and well-tempered justice for no longer a period than the short time after the expulsion of the kings, while the city was occupied with the serious Tuscan war and Tarquin’s vengeance”.
St Augustine “The City of God (Book II)”
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120102.htm
Democrats relish anarchy and hatred!
” Now it’s Elizabeth Warren for her comments about the killing of Brian Thompson, the CEO of United Health Care. Except for you and others on the right who else has criticized Warren? ”
Except for more than half of the country who is criticizing Warren ? possibly no one.
But more than half the country is criticizing warren
Regardless are you actually defending Murder ?
“Warren clearly told Joy Reid that “Violence is never the answer” but that’s what happens when “you push people so far…””
Correct. But it is impossible to “push people too far” in voluntary free exchange.
You can love UHC, you can hate them. You are NOT obligated to buy insurance from them.
You are not obligated to buy health insurance at all.
If UHC has not lived up to its contracts – we have a perfectly good civil court system.
Oh, But wait – left wing nuts screwed that up, and unless you PERSONALLY bouht health insurance on the open market, you can not sue an insurance company, you have to go through ERISA. Which takes years and gets you pretty close to nowhere. See the wonders that The left has foist upon us.
Violence can NEVER be justified in actual free exchange – because you CAN NOT “push people too far”. They are ALWAYS free to say no.
Violence is only justified in response to force. That means RARELY in response to Government, and in defense of self and defense of others.
This is extremely important – because that is a requirement of the social contract without which government itself is not justified.
“What did she mean by that statement?” I can not parse what she DID mean, but I can easily establish that whatever she meant, she can NOT be refering to any situation in which violence against the UHC CEO would be justified – because the ONLY conditions in which violence against a private actor is justified is in response to the IMMEDIATE threat of bodily harm to you or another. That condition did not exist did not exist. Therefore whatever Warren meant in the context of the UHC CEO her statement was immorla and lawless.
“We don’t know all the motives behind the killing.”
So ? Again deadly force is ONLY justified in response to the IMMEDIATE threat of bodily harm to you or another.
We know that is NOT the case.
If the UHC CEO had Raped Luigi’s girlfriend months ago – that would NOT be a justification for Murder.
Mangione’s motives are of purely academic interest – though we do have his manefesto – which gives us clues to his motives.
Regardless there are few if any crimes where motives matter.
“But the alleged killer, Luigi Mangione, apparently was motivated by the way Thompson and other health insurers treat their policy holders.”
So ? If you do not like the way your insurance company treats you – do not buy insurance from them.
“United and other private health insurance companies make/save money by denying medical care.”
Loosely Correct, that a part of ALL insurance. Again – if we really had a free market in health insurance – Insurance companies would have to balance gains from denying coverage against losses as customers went elsewhere, or sued them for breach of contract.
You left wing nuts TRIED to make it soe that people were REQUIED to buy Health insurance, The loss of freedom to negotiate or go elsewhere or go without is on YOU, not UHC.
You left wing nuts DID make it so that MOST people can not sue their insurance company for breach of contract, instead having to go through a cumbersome govenrment system ERISA that heavily favors insurance companies.
UHC is not the problem – YOU are.
“Almost everyone has a horror story about being denied coverage for some procedure under a private insurance policy. ”
And even more have horror stories about being denied coverage or given inferior coverage by “public health insurance”.
Why do you think people from Canada come to the US for healthcare ? Why do you think people in England travel to India – a country where the people hate them ?
“It starts with deductibles, co-pays.”
These exist for a critical reason – moral hazard. Even most of the so called socialist systems in the EU -most of which are less socialist than the US,
there are copays and deductibles – usually higher than the US and usually MANDATED by law.
Why ? Because whenever you have one party consuming a goog or service, a second party providing it and a third paying it, you end up with uncontrolled runaway consumption.
We have seen that with Medicare which is responsible for nearly all increased healthcare costs in the US since its inception.
YOU can always tell when government is dicking with a market – because prices go UP, not DOWN.
“Then there are denials for going out-of-network.”
So do not go out of network or buy a policy that allows you to – it will likely cost you more – because networks exist because insurance companies negotiated with in network doctors for lower prices.
“Then every policy has fine exclusions that are used to deny coverage.”
Correct – just like every contract that ever was.
If you do not like the exclusions – pay more for health insurance that does not have those exclusions.
“If you want to appeal a decision to deny coverage it’s a lengthy and frustrating experience–which many times ultimately results in denial of coverage.”
Correct – the internal appeals process is nearly impossible – because nearly all insurance companies know for nearly all customers that the next appeal is to ERISA – not the courts.
Insurance companies do NOT have any incentive to keep customers happy – in MOST intances YOU do not pay them, YOU can not sue them.
It is those of you on the left that created that.
“Warren has been focusing on the sad state of the health care system in this country for years.”
She has, and she has been universally WRONG.
“We have the most expensive health care system in the world.”
Correct. But before government got involved we had the cheapest healthcare system in the world.
As a rule when you see prices in an industry rise – especially faster than inflation for years, you do NOT have a free market.
The US has not had a truly free market in health insurance or health care since the 60’s
I will absolutely positively guarantee you that MORE government regulation will not fix it.
Further YOU – the left claimed that you fixed everything with PPACA – yet here we are a decade+ later with people committing murder over healthcare.
Sure seems like PPACA failed.
Why exactly should anyone beleive that the people who gave us PPACA can do better ?
“Warren and Bernie Sanders have called for a universal health care system–“Medicare for all”.”
A system that has failed everywhere it has been tried.
Britian has reintroduced private health insurance and private hospitals – because NHS sucks.
Candians by the 10’s of thousands come to the US and pay out of pocket for healthcare – because public healthcare in canada sucks.
Do you really want to discus the so called public healthcare system of Cuba – which was not too bad – when it was heavily subsidized as part of a PR campaign by communists to pretend that communism actually worked. Since then the USSR collapsed, the CCP and Russia provide little aide to Cuba and not only is their healthcare system a disaster – but EVERYTHING is coming apart.
“Polls show the public overwhelmingly supports such a system. ”
Because you lie to them. Are you really going to claim that medicare works better than private health insurance ?
Medicare works so well that anyone who can afford it buys private suplimental insurance.
You do realize that Medicare is a bankrupt ponzi scheme ? At some point – likely soon we are RADICALLY going to have to raise medicare taxes.
And even now – Medicare only pays on average 95% of the actual cost of services it delivers – medicare is subsidized by private health insurance.
And Medicaide is worse – delivering worse care and only covering 70% of costs.
“Every other major industrialized country in the world has it. ”
FALSE. Most of Europe has PRIVATE health care – what they have is Goverment MANDATED healthcare – vaguely similar to PPACA.
Other countries like india have public healthcare on paper, but in reality 95% of the healthcare is entirely private.
Regardless making sweeping generalizations about the rest of the world is bogus.
Most european healthcare is NOT the same as the US, it is ALSO not the same as those on the left pretend – it is NOT medicare for all.
The quality of healthcare is also radically different. And there are other differences. Have you ever had to spend time in a US hospital covered by private health insurance ?
My mother died of Colon cancer. She spent a great deal of time in the hospital her last year. The hospital had a special cancer wing. The amenties in the Helmsley palace were inferior.
Her room was larger than her master bedroom at home. The room had hardwood paneling, a breakfast nook A family area including places for family to sleep or watch TV separate from my mother.
A decade later my father died of vascualr demensia. his hospital experiences were much the same.
All the wonderful amenities in the hospitals that my parents used in the last year of their life did NOTHING to change whether they lived or died.
But they RADICALLY altered the quality of life in their last year.
The FACT is (aside from delays and rationing) Canada, England, and even India provide very close to the same health outcomes as the US.
Healthcare in india is INCREDIBLY cheap – Brits can easily pay for everything out of pocket.
But the non-medical aspects of the care are RADICALLY different.
I would note that Life expectancy in the US increases by about 0.2%/yr and has been doing so steadily since 1960.
Prior to that it increased faster.
After you take into account the effects of antispetics, antibiotics, and IV fluids, Saline, Plasma, and blood. There has been little consequential improvement in healthcare in 60 years.
SMALL improvements – absolutely.
This is why the fairly basic healthcare in much of the world – approximating what the US had in the 50’s has resulted in enormous increases in life expectance, while in the US and the west increases have been tiny.
The US can return to the approximate standard of care of the 50’s – with no private rooms, and one or two nurses to a ward, compined with the healthcare technolgoy we have today and deliver the same outcomes we do today at a fraction of the cost.
US Healthcare is a luxury good compared tot he rest of the world. – but the “luxury” aspect is NOT the outcomes. It is the creature comforts, Which have nothing to do with health outcomes and everything to fo with quality of life.
“So why don’t we have it here?” – because it is a ridiculously bad idea.
You are ranting and raving about a bunch of problems regarding insurance providers denying claims.
What you think that does not happen in public systems ?
Healthcare is NOT unique, it is a commodity service no different from cars, or plumbing.
It works no different.
“It’s because private health insurers and their Republican allies in Congress oppose it.”
Because it is an absymally bad idea – go visit Cuba.
Micheal more used to claim Cuba had better healthcare than the US.
“The health care industry spends millions lobbying to prevent the the enactment of legislation by Warren, Sanders and others in Congress. ”
Probably. And we could save alot of money by just NOT pushing stupid legislation and allow free markets to work.
“That’s because it would cut into their profits.”
Actually that is FALSE. Despite claims by Warren and Sanders – the real cost of Medicare is FAR higher than private health insurance.
Vermont tried to impliment M4A – it died because it was unaffordable. They could not deliver Medicare to 10% of th population for the same price as private health insurance costs.
“Last year United Health Care made $22 billion in profits.”
ot according to the SEC filings.
In 2023 UHC had 94.8B in revenue, and 5.46B in profits for a retur of 5% which is pretty much the norm for businesses with similar risk profiles.
” It paid Brian Thompson $10.2 million, plus stock grants, to lead the industry fight against the proposals by Warren and others.”
The CEO of Bank of America makes 22M/yr – BOA’s saled are 28B/yr.
Thomspon is relatively poorly paid for the CEO of a 100B company.
“This why a lot of the public is sympathetic to Mangione.”
Anyone who is sympathetic to Mangione is morally bankrupt.
You may Kill people who are imminently threatening deadly force to you or others.
You may NOT kill people whose services YOU chose and who you are now unhappy with.
I do not care how $hitty a company UHC is – that is a different debate.
The only moral remedies you have in a free market are Go elsewhere, or sue for breach of contract.
There is no difference between Mangione murdering Thompson and someone murdering the manager of a Quicky mart.
” Brian Forte, a former Green Party candidate for Congress from New Jersey, expressed the feelings of many of the public: “Currently, over 1,000 people go bankrupt daily, solely due to personal medical bills.”
This is nonsense that Warren spouts – not only is it FALSE, but it is FALSE from Warren’s own studies.
As I recall medical debt is a factor in only about 1/3 of all bankruptcies, and on average the medical debt discharged in bankruptcy is about 3000.
“Anyone who can make millions of dollars overseeing a system like this, and sleep well at night, doesn’t deserve my sympathy”.
No one has asked you to have Sympathy for Thompson.
What you are morally and legally obligated to do is NOT murder him.
“Of course, the killing of Brian Thompson can’t be justified.”
And yet you have spent several paragraphs pretending that it can be.
It would not matter if you were right about every claim you have made – Mangione’s actions are both immoral and illegal, and anyone trying to justify them in any way is immoral.
But the FACT is that EVERY claim you have made is false.
“And I suspect we won’t see any CEO of any health insurance company walking around the streets of NY or any other city any more–at least not without heavy security protection that will be paid for by policy holders.”
That is correct – Mangione has INCREASED the costs of health insurance for EVERYONE.
Though security is NOT the only likely change. Expect more companies to move out of NYC, expect more companies to cease having meetings and business in NYC or other places that are not safe for them.
I know that those of you on the left do not grasp this – but people – including CEO’s and even ordinary people avoid places that are lawless and unsafe.
“What a sad state of affairs! ”
Absolutely – it is very sad that those on the left even pretend to justify lawlessness. It is immoral – but Typical of left wing nuts to take advantage of lawlessness and crises of their own making to reduce our freedom further.
“Perhaps, in a way, Thompson’s demise could serve a useful purpose. ”
Identifying the lawless immoral scum in our society.
“To get us to focus on the broken health care system in this country that needs immediate attention”
We have heard this claim over and over. This is how we got Medicare in the first place. It is how wee got ERISA, it is how we got the myriads of changes to healthcare and health insurance over the decades. It is how we got Obamacare.
YOU promised with EACH of this “Reforms” – that would fix everything, it did not, it only made things worse.
* John Say why don’t you get your own blog and just call it John Say says.com
He’s too lazy.
John say-your facts are right on and health care costs in the 1960’s were relatively cheap but care was effective for the time. Just about every government move has made it worse and more expensive and you are right about the European systems and their mandate. Maybe we should back off and use a European approach like Germany and cut this monstrosity back to a workable size.
Before we try M4A a stupid and dangerous experiment – that has been tried elsewhere Before.
Why not try working on a smaller scale.
First lets fix Medicare itself. Pass law that requires medicare to pay no less than what individuals have to pay for the same medical services.
Government should not be subsidized by private insurance or the uninsured.
Next, Require that Medicare MUST operate in the black EVERY YEAR. Medicare is funded by HI taxes – currently just under 3% of gross wages.
Eliminate the Employer portion of HI and OASDI – if you want require a one time 8% wage increase to make the actual cost of Social Securtity and Medicate transparent to people.
Then increase/decrease the HI tax automatically each year to assure that Medicare is fully paid for each year. No borrowing from the general fund. No borrowing period.
Next mandate that Medicare MUST reduce its rates of Fraud to within 1% of those of the rest of the industry. Doing so will require Medicare to conduct the same Due Diligence that all other health insurance must.
Next BEFORE we force the entire country onto Medicare – eliminate ALL government – federal state local health insurance, and put all government employees (and legislators) on Medicare.
See how long that lasts.
PRIVATIZATION is constitutional.
Medicare is not.
Dennis – the reason tat M4A is not happening is because it is far too expensive. Medicare is already heavily privately subsidized AND it is still running in the red.
“Medicare was responsible for $449 billion in deficits (including associated interest costs), or 27 percent of the entire 2023 federal budget deficit.”
That BTW is the shortfall AFTER private subsidies of about 5%
Running Medicare as it is without private subsidies and without going into the red would require more than 1/2T per year in additional taxes on wages.
Medicare currently covers 19% of the population. It would cost $5T/year to deliver basic medicare to everyone that is about a 1.5T/year increase in Healthcare costs. Worse still – that provides ONLY basic Medicare. Not dug suppliments, or privately paid medicare advantage.
So we would pay more money for less services.
Now do you have the slightest clue when Vermonts efforts to deliver M4A failed ?
Dennis: I thought you would be happy to know that I will not have to substitute onions for garlic in my Italian green beans after all! I was about out of dog food for the possums and coons, so I did a Klarna order from WalMart. I got the 46 pound bag of Old Roy, and a 30 pound bag of Kit N Kaboodle for the cats. That put the total over the amount for free delivery, and also over the amount for Klarna. I decided that since you only live once, to throw all caution to the wind, and spring for a sleeve of three garlic bulbs. That was less than $2, and since I am having to switch to the cheaper Kraft caramels for my coffee, as opposed to my preferred Werthers Salted Caramel, that savings paid for the garlic. I tell you, the Biden inflation is causing me to make some major changes! I also bought poppy seeds, and they were cheap. Sometimes I fry up or microwave slices of French bread in butter, and the poppy seeds are a nice touch.
But wouldn’t you just know it? Walmart delivered the dog food and cat food, but forgot to bring the garlic, poppy seeds, and caramels. I called them up, and got a promo code to pay for the new delivery. Anyway, I sat outside for a while today smoking my Dr. Grabow Royal Duke pipe, and it was so nice to smoke real pipe tobacco again. I had a can of Redneck Caviar (potted meat) and crackers for lunch. It was like a mini picnic. Peanut was out for a while, too, until she got cold. I had to come in to go to the restroom, and when I returned, there was this big yellow cat out there eating the leftovers from Bob and Sarge, who had already finished. I went ahead and put some more wet food out for him/her. Before I went in, two more smaller yellow cats were sitting at the bottom of the ramp. I guess they smelled the fish or whatever. So, even though I had some pipe tobacco left, came on inside.
Tomorrow, I have some carpentry work to do, and I will let you know how that went! I also figured out how to get my Keurig Duo to reheat the carafe. You have to hold the carafe button down for three seconds, then you get another two hours. It reminds me of those booths down at the XXX theaters where you had to keep popping quarters in, but I don’t want to talk about that. Anyway, that energy saving stuff and green stuff has done something else – it has made water bottles and other containers harder to get into. They reduced the size of the plastic ring down a few millimeters to save plastic, and weight for shipping, but I swear, I have to keep a pair of chain lock pliers in the kitchen to open things now. For a while, I thought I was just getting massively weaker in my hands, so I am glad to know that it wasn’t just me.
* tip on opening all bottles now-
Hold the bottle neck under hot running water for a few seconds or more and the plastic or metal expands releasing its grip. Then open as usual.
Science
Thanks!
Dennis
I will propose another simple but actually effective – reform. To health insurance.
Transfer the Ownership of Health insurance to the insured person.
This allows you to eliminate ERISA and it allow each insured person to sue their insurance provider should they breach their contract.
A PROPER transfer of ownership would be best accomplished if people also had to PAY directly for their health insurance.
So End employer provided Health insurance. This is stupidiity that came about during the great depression when FDR’s stupid price controls made it impossible for businesses to increase wages, so they accomplished the same thing by providing health insurance. Prior to that nearly all healthcare was private pay, and what little was not, was individually owned insurance.
Employees who broke their legs, lost MORE money from the time at the hospital than the cost of treatment.
Today if you break a leg the cost will likely exceed with the average person makes in 3 months.
While treatment of broken legs has improved, it has not improved 9000%
So require a ontime increase in employees gross pay to cover the cost of the company health insurance and then make that inusurance a deductible OPTION from peoples pay check.
Then employees can take the company plan paying the cost for that plan out of their wages,
or opt out keeping the money from the company plan and either buying private insurance themselves, or going bare and hoping for the best.
Regardless you will come CLOSE to restoring free market conditions.
There is only one Price control in existance that actually works – that is the free market.
Jordan Williams killed a homeless drug addicted mentally ill black man on a subway, when that man punched his girlfriend in the head. Williams was charged but the Grand Jury decided it was self defense. Jordan Williams was Black.
Daniel Penny used a choke hold on a homeless drug addicted mentally ill black man on a subway, when that man harrased and threatened to murder over a dozen people in the subway car. The homeless man was still alive when the police arrived.
Penny was charged the Grand Jury indicted, a jury tried and hung on a murder charge and acqutted on a mansalughter charge.
Penny was White.
Luigi Mangione made a gun and silencer, traveled to NYC and murdered a businessman in cold blood.
People like Dennis – completely ignored the Williams case.
Told us all that Penny was a white supremecist racist – despite the fact that one of the people who helped Penny hold down the violent black drug addict was black and the other was hispanic and the people on the subway were almost all minorities and universally said that Peny was a hero and likely saved their lives.
They also tell us that Penny getting acquitted was systemic racism, and that if Penny was black he would have been convicted.
Of course the WIlliams case happened at nearly the same time, and a grand jury did not even indict Williams.
Finally they keep trying to tell us that Mangione was some kind of volk hero. That it is somehow OK to murder people who make a good living by providing others with services that they buy voluntarily and can buy elsewhere if they want – or not at all.
It is somehow “Pushing people too far” to offer people a service which they can freeley decline or buy elsewhere if they want.
And it is OK to murder them in cold blood.
What is really disturbing is that a NYC jury with people like Dennis, or Joy Reid, or Fauxcahantas, could acquit Mangione.
* Warren rephrased– insurance companies are so bad people want to kill them. Mangione was just pushed to the breaking point by the company. It was the insurance company’s fault. They pushed him into it like devils wanting blood. Mangione is the true victim.
Insurance plays the part of Iago and pushed Othello aka Mangione into murder. Thompson plays the part of Desdemona.
“Outtayerdaminde” by Five Times August
“Nobody cares about what you say”
Dunceocrat Smackintire seems to forget that what he’s complaining about was part and parcel of his beloved Obamacare program. Dunceocrats always complain about the things that are the precise result of their own inane policies. Similarly, the Dunceocrats complain about rising inflation, higher crime, and higher taxes and then they vote for Dunceocrats in their states when the Dunceocrat policies and directives cause those very things to happen. They don’t call them Dunceocrats for nothing.
* it just continues to sink…Sean Hannity now think he must include slang and crass language in his radio show. Currently his favorite is–> kick some ass. He should add mofo to it.
As the world sinks its notable that child abuse is a favorite pastime. Comedy shows show people being injured.
As Sotomayor pointed out in the transgender case the damage and injuries are acceptable and expected.
Too bad god didnt like us.
“This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man’s laws, not God’s! And if you cut them down, and you’re just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake!”
Prof. Turley, how long before you switch parties? Seriously, you make so much sense, so you can’t remain a Democrat forever.
Size,
You make a great point!
So if you compare those comments to this from Gus Hall, CPUSA candidate for President and General Secretary of the CPUSA, what conclusion do you reach?
“… I dream of the day when the last priest is strangled on the guts of the last preacher.”
Gus Hall
Gus Hall stole that from Denis Diderot.
To wit, “Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.”
(Gus Hall was kind of illiterate.)
“kind of”? That not very literate of you. But you recognize Gus as an illiterate?
Colloquial.
Since Diderot had his life’s major work (the first secular encyclopedia) suppressed by the Roman Catholic Church (and, at its behest, by the French government) because it contained information inconvenient to the dictates of the Magisterium, one might suppose that he had more justification for that sentiment than did Hall.
Ooops, looks like Trump is already backing away from his primise to lower grocery prices. Seems it’s way harder than it is. But it was exaclty why Trump won. Because people were not happy with how expensive groceries have become.
Add Tariffs and tax cuts and his promise looks more like he will be raising prices more instead. Did Trump lie? Now that he is assured the presidency how many promises will he backtrack on?
It seems like you are on the wrong thread. Did you notice your comment has no relevance to the subject?
@George
No, oops, you seem to literally be incapable of grasping how our system works, by design. Really, man, you are an idiot. And you are an idiot that will be marginalized into oblivion over the next ten years. Accept it. You lost, bigly. Nobody cares. go back to your street corner with cardboard signs, because that is about the level of sh*t the rest of us care. You are certainly entitled to share your opinion, but stop pretending it has any gravitas whatsoever. We have shown you unequivocally this November that it does not. You are, and but for chicanery, have always been a very, very tiny but privileged minority in a country of almost 400 million. Too much to unpack there in the greater scheme, but really – eff off. We are done with you.
George = delusional
Thanks, George. Americans are not happy with his nominees, either–excerpted from “Fox”:
“Fifty-four percent of respondents in the survey, which was conducted Dec. 6-9 and released on Wednesday, said Trump’s election victory last month in the White House race over Vice President Kamala Harris made them hopeful.
However, when asked about the president-elect’s cabinet selections, which include some unconventional nominees, 47% of those polled said they approved, with 50% disapproving.
It was the same response when asked about billionaire Elon Musk serving as a close adviser to the president-elect during the transition from President Biden’s administration to the Trump administration, with 47% approving and 50% disapproving.”
Here’s the rhetorical question I already know the answer to: does Trump care how Americans feel about getting them to vote for him because of a baseless lie about bringing down grocery prices “precipitiously” or that they don’t like the conflicted, unqualified and inexperienced people he is nominating to head agencies?
It’s barely a month after the election of Donald J. Trump and you’re back to quoting polls.
I’m not upset that you lied to me, I’m upset that from now on I can’t believe you.
Friedrich Nietzsche
That would be BADLY quoting polls.
Gigi obtains some perverse pleasure from being continually hated on the Turley blog.
Bizarre.
Who does that?
Gigi
Why do you keep this up ?
No one beleives you.
Atlanta, GA – A McLaughlin & Associates poll found strong support for DOGE and government employee efficiency.
The poll shows that 70.7% of Americans support DOGE and 65.4% of Americans support firing government employees who do not return to their office post-pandemic.
DOGE’s existence is supported by 78.6% of Republicans, 64.0% of Democrats, and 68.0% of Independents. So DOGE’s existence has broad, bipartisan support.
Trump appointments ranked.
All Trumps appointments are wildly popular among Republicans.
Nearly all are positively viewed EVER factoring in democrats.
But not a single Trump appointment is viewed favorably by Democrats.
Put more simply views of Trump’s appointments are the same as the election results.
https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-cabinet-popularity-ranked-poll-eleon-musk-tulsi-gabbard-1993024
CNN Poll: Most Americans approve how Trump is handling his return to the White House
https://www.cnn.com/2024/12/11/politics/cnn-poll-trump-transition/index.html
Most approve of Trump transition handling: Poll
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/5034948-trump-transition-poll-approval/
Trump Favorability Rating Reaches 7-Year High—As Majority Of Americans Approve Of Transition: Polls
https://www.forbes.com/sites/saradorn/2024/12/12/trump-gets-high-marks-for-transition-process-in-new-poll-but-lags-behind-previous-presidents/
CBS News poll finds Trump starts on positive note as most approve of transition handling
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cbs-news-poll-trump-transition-cabinet-picks-2024-11-24/
Trump has two years to make people better off than they are now.
And Trump and Republicans have 4 years before the presidency will be in play again.
In that time I highly doubt Trump will deliver PRECISELY what he has promised.
And people will not care.
Biden/Harris did not lose because “grocery prices were too high”,
They lost because the answer to the question “are you better off then you were four years ago ?” was no.
That will be the measure of Trump and republicans in 2 and 4 years.
Your rants and faux analysis at the moment are irrelevant.
The majority of voters bet that Trump was more likely to leave them better off in 4 years than Harris.
That is what Trump promised, that is what Republicans promised that is what they must deliver.
Of course we all know what Trump promises are worth: steamed turds, anyone?
Now you go your way, baby, and I’ll go mine
Now and forever, ’til the end of time
I’ll find somebody new, and baby, we’ll say we’re through
And you won’t matter anymore
* Hopefully American farmers and ranchers will up production. Let’s hope they’re smart enough to undercut the foreign competition.
There’s nothing that can be done about the fraud of repackaging products splitting in two and doubling the price of both. That tactic comes out of the third world and is non Christian.
How did the US reach this point? https://www.quora.com/Whats-wrong-with-the-US-healthcare-system/answer/Andrew-M-Baer