A Saudi judge in Jeddah has again given the world a taste of law under the country’s medieval Sharia system. A 23-year-old pregnant woman who complained about being gang raped has been found guilty of adultery (even though she is not married) and ordered that she serve one year in jail and receive 100 lashes.
The woman said that she accepted a ride from a man who took her to a house in Jeddah where she was gang rape by him and his four friends all night. In an act of mercy, the Saudis will allow her to have the baby first and then flog her.
The woman’s “crime” was revealed at the hospital when she sought an abortion.
Saudi Arabia has repeatedly punished rape victims under Sharia law, here and here..
In a fascinating interview, one reporters explored the view of some Saudi men that it is perfectly appropriate to rape a woman traveling alone or with a non-family member.
Rape victims have been stoned to death or jailed in other countries following Sharia.
Even in more modern nations like Turkey, rape victims can face “honor killings” by family members.
For the full story, click here.
**When I see TV Preachers spouting Republicanism and Conservatism it does not jibe with my reading of the Gospels, nor of Jesus life.**
I am in firm agreement with you. Right-wing religion is arrogant, self-righteous, and cares nothing about the essence of worship or godliness. Jesus bears no resemblance.
**When I also see people claiming to completely understand a being such as God I see that as blasphemy and egotism.**
I don’t claim to know anything but what has been explicitly revealed by God–revealed to me because of His grace, not my merit. It will take an eternity to understand an Infinite God.
“You seem to have kept the Mosaic law rather well. What about atonement? Is that no longer necessary?”
Clint,
Atonement, in the Hebraic conceptualization, is always necessary whether one is or isn’t religious. Atonement is self examination of how we have treated others and ourselves. Even though I am a Deist Jew I practice it specifically every year between Rosh Hashonah and Yom Kippur as I celebrate the Jewish High Holy Days in Synagogue and at home. With the self examination of past deeds and behaviors comes the concomitant need to deal with those I have wronged and make good on it personally. In truth I try to practice Rabbi Hillel’s and the Pharisaic formulation, known to you as The Golden Rule, every day of my life, sometimes successfully, sometimes not. I freely admit my humanity.
Now you ask me various question and for the answers I refer you to the work of Hyam Maccoby and then to the sources he cites. If you so choose to follow this up you will also find Christian scholars who dispute and deride him. This is to be expected. Maccoby was Jewish and writing from a Jewish perspective. However, many Christian biblical scholars have also supported this perspective and retained their faith.
My point is not to tell you that your religious belief is wrong. One’s religious, or non-religious belief is personal and hopefully is examined and modified throughout one’s life. My point is that from a Jewish perspective Christians have hi-jacked and misinterpreted our Torah and we have valid reasons for feeling that way. From your perspective Christianity has replaced Judaism and is an extension of the Torah culminating in the “New Testament.”
I don’t know and can’t comment how you came to your religious point of view. For me though I was born a Jew and became more religious as I said the “Mourner’s Kaddish” daily in Synagogue for the year after my mother died, when I was 17. When my father died and I was 18, I did not “say Kaddish” and didn’t step into a Synagogue (except for family “Mitzvah’s) until I was 37. Throughout my whole life though I’ve explored all forms of religious belief to try to open myself up to some sense of what life is about. In that journey I’ve read much about Christianity and of course what you call “The New Testament.” I’ve not found Christianity or its’ beliefs persuasive. However, I’ve been friends with many who have and I have respected their beliefs and participated with respect and enthusiasm in their religious rituals. I love Gospel music and Christmas Carols, but do not celebrate Christmas.
Where I get angered by some currents of current Christianity is when their proponents try to enforce their beliefs on society as a whole. The abortion issue for instance is to me a religious belief that should be left to a woman’s choice.
I believe that Fundamentalist thought in any religion is dangerous when it mixes with politics and that includes Judaism. To my mind religious fundamentalists are responsible for innumerable deaths and misery throughout history.
When I see TV Preachers spouting Republicanism and Conservatism it does not jibe with my reading of the Gospels, nor of Jesus life. When I also see people claiming to completely understand a being such as God I see that as blasphemy and egotism. That’s me though, you are entitled to your beliefs.
I offered you a source for where many of my ideas were formed, its’ your choice whether you avail yourself of it. I’m not here to deride your belief or to educate you. If it provides comfort to you and your wife God Bless. However I would appreciate it if you and your fellow believers stayed out of my face and out of the laws of my country. When I’m approached by pimply young kids sent out to save my soul I am put off and angered by their effrontery and that of the people who sent them on their mission.
Sorry for the lateness.
*Historians place the writing of the individual Gospels from perhaps 75 to 140 CE, way after Jesus death.*
What historians?
*Jesus, his family and his apostles all were faithful Jews, most probably Pharisee trained. They were opponents of the Romans, obviously, because the Pharisee’s led the ongoing revolt and had they not been the High Priest (Sadducee) would have been on their side and not arresting Jesus.*
What history book do you get this from since you reject what has been written of Him?
**Isaiah was railing against the Jewish crisis in his own times and was not prophesying some future Messiah some 700 years in the future.**
Was this the pre-Christian view of this passage in Isaiah among Jews?
How is this “railing against the Jewish crisis”? Who is Isaiah speaking of in this particular passage?
“But he was wounded for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,”
Pretty crafty of Paul to write something similar, “For our sake, He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that we might become the righteousness of God” -2 Cor. 5:21.
You seem to have kept the Mosaic law rather well. What about atonement? Is that no longer necessary?
Bravo Mike Spindell,
You are a shining Mentsh. I feel indebted to you. Thank you
Clint,
You are correct that the “lamb” imagery originated in Isaiah, but you must agree that “Lamb of God,” referring to Jesus has been a recurrent Christian usage and theme. However, in your quote you inadvertently reinforced the points I’ve been making and I’ll explain why.
The Book of Isaiah is a book in the Jewish Torah attributed to an 8th Century BCE Jewish prophet. He lived in a time of great upheaval for the Jews, with Assyrian invasions, Hebrew kings poor judgment and at different times the occupation of Judah, Israel and Samaria, the three Jewish Kingdoms. Isaiah 7. probably referred to King Ahaz, who sold out the Assyrians and his kingdom Judah and was conquered because of it. Actually, the above is a rather simplified point to mainly present context. Isaiah was railing against the Jewish crisis in his own times and was not prophesying some future Messiah some 700 years in the future.
However, 700 odd years later comes Jesus, also at a time of crisis for Jews and Israel. Jesus, his family and his apostles all were faithful Jews, most probably Pharisee trained. They were opponents of the Romans, obviously, because the Pharisee’s led the ongoing revolt and had they not been the High Priest (Sadducee) would have been on their side and not arresting Jesus. It is possible that as religious Jews they used allusions to the Torah, to bolster their claim that Jesus was inheritor of the line of David and thus qualified as Messiah. However, Messiah to the Jews (Moshiach) referred to a human king who would destroy the Roman oppressors and lead the world to peace. In Jewish belief traditionally and at that time
no divinity was attached to the Messiah.
However, quite awhile after Jesus death comes Paul. He makes two claims that actually are suspicious. First that he is Pharisee by education and second that he worked for the High Priest (Sadducee) rounding up rebels. If he was Pharisee trained it is highly unlikely that he would work for the Saduccess, except of course if he was a traitor to Israel. His second claim though, while probably being true, makes his case even weaker. He claims Roman citizenship by birth. There is no way that the Pharisees would be training a hereditary Roman citizen since that’s exactly who they were fighting. Also a Roman citizen would have had to acknowledge the emperor as a God and no Jew, claiming to be at all religious could have done that. Also it must be remembered that Paul never met Jesus in the flesh.
We then have Paul on his way to Damascus, under a hot sun, falling off of his mount and having a vision of Jesus. This is supposedly where he is saved and becomes a super Apostle,that in his mind ranks above all the Apostles and followers of Jesus while he lived. Paul is the actual father of Christianity and certainly moved it in the direction of the deification of Jesus. Meanwhile, back in Jerusalem James the Just has become the head of Jesus’ movement. Why James when the Gospels portray Jesus family as being against him. That’s easily answered by realizing that as Jesus’ brother, he was also of the line of David, which was needed to claim the authenticity of the movement.
There are further passages in your Bible to show that there were problems between Paul’s claimed Apostleship and the real movement led by James. Much of that argument has been garbled by later Christian editors to show Paul somehow coming out on top. What wasn’t fully garbled though was that the Jesus movement in Jerusalem, led by James and Peter, approved of Paul’s desire to preach to the gentiles, probably to get him out of their sight.
Paul was a successful organizer and even though his version was an anathema to James and the original apostles, his support among the gentiles and among some Jews dispirited by their defeat by the Romans, 70CE, grew. Paul was a great organizer and polemicist. The James followers and movement didn’t die out and some historians trace their existence until the Sixth Century CE. Obviously though, Paul’s views won and to the victor comes the spoils of rewriting the history. When Constantine got into the game the Christian Canon was carefully edited to make the Romans seems like some benign group. This was hard to do when just a Century before you were throwing Christians to the lions, but done it was.
A long preamble, I suppose, but it provides context for my refutation. Historians place the writing of the individual Gospels from perhaps 75 to 140 CE, way after Jesus death. They were written by followers of Paul, who were in their minds rightly bitter towards the Jewish establishment and followers of James, who refused to acknowledge Paul’s teachings which were the abrogation of Judaism. As they were written and you can follow the progression, the gospels became progressively anti-Jewish. At the same time they also cut and pasted the Torah to find suitable indications that it foretold Jesus. Thus adding the patina of historicity to their claims. That their interpretations differed from those of the Jews who wrote and nurtured it meant little to them, because in their minds the Jews who didn’t agree with them didn’t understand their own Torah. That is how Isaiah came to be a mainstay even though it has nothing to do with Jesus.
What I find most interesting though is that there is no doubt that Jesus and his apostles lived as pious Jews. Yet the sections of the Torah forbidding eating pork and shellfish and requiring circumcision were ignored. I believe that was because Paul, always a good salesman, realized that part of the pitch was not going to sell with his gentile listeners, or apostate Jews.
I present this all not as a refutation of your belief Clint. I admit that I could be wrong and thus sentenced to eternal hell for my refusal to believe as you do. You have every right to believe as you choose. My point is that there exists a viewpoint and strong evidence to refute Christian claims to Isaiah’s teaching and to the Jewish Torah. I would deeply appreciate it if you Christians would stop trying to force your beliefs on to the rest of us, even if you’ve got some notion that its’ for our own good.
I don’t drink milk with meat and not only am I circumcised and proud, I would have circumcised my sons if I hadn’t been blessed with Daughters. My daughters never had need of abortions, unlike those of many fundamentalist Christians, but I would have strongly supported them getting one if they had made that decision. I believe, as in the Jewish belief, that life and the soul enter the infant with its’ first breath and I am offended that the anti-abortion movement is a sham by fundamentalists to raise funds, gain political power, maintain a patriarchy and rail against female sexuality.
I’ve lived on this planet for a relatively long time, experienced much more of the pain and travail of living than most Americans. I refuse to be dictated to by people who haven’t spent half the time I have trying to make sense out of this thing we call life. I disdain those who have the arrogance to believe they have the right to preach to others and to jam their beliefs down our throats. I feel sorry for those so frightened of life that they wrap themselves in absolutes and refuse to look at evidence to the contrary.
Mike,
Note also where “lamb led to the slaughter” came from….Isaiah again:
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.
Bron,
**If my Hindu friends are excluded then I am excluded.**
We all are. Jesus called well-meaning, law-abiding Jewish people “evil.”
**And that is what Jesus did he tried to teach us how to lead a good life here on earth.**
Most people believe that without even knowing what He taught Bron.
Mike,
**However, the problem with this for Fundamentalists is that they’ve based their dogma on a passive lamb led to the slaughter**
Was Isaiah’s writings corrupted by Constantine also?:
3 He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
Buddha,
If the “debate” is won by sheer number of insults and personal declarations of victory, then you are the winner by a longshot. I came asking questions and I received my answer. Thanks again for the dialogue.
Thanks you guys for all the above; this is why I love this blog!
Bron,
For Jesus to have a major following in his time he would have had to be a revolutionary against Rome and a Pharisee Rabbi to boot. The reason was that the Jews hated Rome and would not accommodate to Roman religious practices, especially deification of the Emperor. The portrayal of the Pharisees in the gospels as hypocrites was necessary to Constantine, since it was well-known that the Pharisees had led the numerous insurrections. The Sadducee’s were the sellouts of their time and hated by the people. The Roman’s in their hubris assumed that the High Priest was the religious leader of the Jews, just as in other religions and did not understand he was a ritual functionary and not a religious leader. Thus they couldn’t comprehend that having controlled the High Priest they were still faced with a religious revolt.
There are many books from scholars both Christian and Jewish that have concluded this. Jesus and the Apostles coming from Galilee for instance indicates this, because there was the hotbed of the Jewish revolts. There are many indications that Jesus revolutionary status was edited out at the various councils starting in 325CE. The sign on Jesus Cross for instance that he claimed to be king of the Jews indicates that he was crucified for insurrection. This is because to proclaim oneself King of the Jews was considered treason by the Romans. This is all very available stuff if one wants to educate themselves.
However, the problem with this for Fundamentalists is that they’ve based their dogma on a passive lamb led to the slaughter at the behest of God their Gospels are literal truth. Because of this history and historical facts must be ignored. The point that Buddha et. al have been making is that if you get past the dogma and religious belief there exists a message and perhaps way of living that has merit. Literalists can’t allow themselves to see this because it might shake their faith. That is why the must preach to others, instead of being content with living their own lives and letting others live theirs.
Aye, Jesus was a scrapper alright. That’s why the Romans feared him. Nice work again, Mike. Really, you may have missed your calling as a Rabbi. You’d have rocked the Temple.
MikeS:
I always thought the effete Jesus was a bunch of balogna, he was in my mind a tough hombre who had the courage to take on Rome and kick a little ass in the temple. When I figured that out it was actually freeing and I thought much better of Jesus than I had before. I dont know why Christians dont teach more about Jesus as radical/revolutionary. It is certainly an individual against the state scenario. Although it took hundreds of years the individual triumphed over the state
A phone call came in an I accidentally posted the prior comment before I was done. Here’s the rest.
“Clint,
If the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has chosen to reveal Himself in a specific way, don’t you feel that we should accept Him exactly the way He has shown? One cannot know God unless God wants to be known in a specific way. Either Isaac or Ishmael was taken to Mt Moriah to be sacrificed. Moses said it was Isaac, Muhammed said it was Ishmael. Either one is right or both are wrong.”
Clint,
Here is the problem I have with your comment and with the general Christian attitude towards Judaism. An attitude that has unfortunately caused much agony for the Jewish Community through 1,684 years. I am dating the agony to the first Council of Nicaea 325CE. Christianity and Judaism are separate religions, with widely different theology and philosophy. From a Jewish theological perspective Christianity is an admixture of of Hellenistic and Gnostic philosophy, subsumed to the needs of a pagan Emperor who need Christian support and offered up power and wealth to seal the deal. The Romans hated the Jews because their frequent rebellions represented some of the greatest setbacks of the unending success of Roman Imperialism. In order to make Jesus, a probable Jewish revolutionary and Pharisee palatable, they had to severely edit your Gospels to make Jesus a pacifist and neutral towards Rome. In the process it was necessary to demonize the Jews as Christ Killers, make Pilate who the independent Roman records show was a monster palatable and appropriate our Torah with editing/translation/interpretation more palatable to their beliefs.
Now of course I’m just giving you the general Jewish point of view in trying to make you understand that to us God could never have revealed himself in the way you think he did. there is no such thing as Judeo-Christian belief, although as an oppressed minority for so many years many have had to help you all keep up the pretense. Judaism and Christianity are totally separate religions. If Christianity is right, then Judaism is wrong, or vice-versa.
As for the second part of your statement Abraham never took either son to Mt. Moriah to sacrifice one. It’s not literal Clint. It’s a metaphor that clearly shows God did not want to have human sacrifice, as was common throughout the world at the time. It was one of the things that separated an evolving Judaism from the surrounding horror of many of the then current religious practices.
Now please understand that I am a Deist that chooses to practice Jewish ritual. My philosophical thinking through the years has led me to believe that there is some sort of creative force in the Universe, but that it is impossible for us humans, in our current state of development, to understand its’ meaning. The concept of Heaven of Hell simply does not make any sense to me, yet I do accept the possibility of life after death and I’ll wait until that time comes to find out, or just cease to exist.
In the meantime I’ve tried to live my life based on Rabbi Hillel’s strictures and I think it’s a good base for all of humanity to live by. If some kind of judgment comes after death I am ready to meet the Judge, but hopefully not for many years.
I presented the above not as a dispute with Christianity, but to give you an understanding of the Jewish point of view and why we people with a history and philosophy that reaches back for perhaps 3,500 years resent the attitude that Christians have a lock on truth and that we’re somehow children to be educated by you.
I wish you well in your beliefs and my attitude on people is that basically if they live by “The Golden Rule,” as your religion puts it, then its’ fine with me and I wish all peace, love and good health. However, I do resent that you have been attempting to use this site to spread your “good news,” while lacking a full understanding of what you speak. Anything I’ve stated is available for easy googling and research. If you are as pious as you profess it might be helpful to really look into the history of what you say. Who knows it might even make you stronger in your belief. However, all too many of your ilk are afraid to do so, because you are afraid of what you’ll find. Then too, some people approach religious belief with a closed mind and the sad thing about that to me, is that I think one human purpose is to try to learn, to grow and to examine their philosophical/spiritual underpinnings.
Clint,
I’d stepped out of this dialog because others were handling it well. Also too if you remember in my first response to you I felt you were dishonest because you clearly had an intent to start a religious debate, but were hanging back setting up your defense with rhetorical traps. Later on I tempered my feeling of your intellectual dishonesty because it is always good to have many points of view around. However, in reading your layest series of comments it becomes evident that you’re just another well meaning Christian doing your duty and trying to save non-believers from hell.
The Christian Missionaries accompanied the early imperialists and spread Christ’s word at the point of a gun, while their expedition leaders were plundering the natives. These supposed pious men were there to provide moral cover for the evil of men destroying and despoiling societies. They also got a piece of the action.
Today we still see the Christian Missionary bringing salvation to the ignorant and unsuspecting. They are in many guises be they Baptist Preachers, young Mormons on a mission, or those for whom I hold particular disdain “Jews for Jesus” types who spread the myth that Christianity is just a continuation of Jewish teaching to Jews with poor Jewish education or family tradition. What galls me most about the concept of Christian Missionary work, or that of Muslims for that matter, is their blasphemy that they possess the sole truth. Believing that the Creator of the Universe (if there is one) could be understood by humans is blasphemy in my mind. The concept of an “Awesome God” expounded in the Torah is just that, beyond our ability to understand. As I’ve stated in other comments, on other threads, the great Rabbi Hillel, who predated Jesus, when asked to sum up the meaning of the Torah said:
“That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn.”
Those who read the Torah, or any holy book should take the Rabbi’s words in caution of their own lack of understanding.
Holy Books are not meant to be read as literalistic history.
Metaphors/parables express higher truths not specifics. Genesis was all metaphor, understood as such at the time of its’ creation and not a literal blueprint of creation. If you don’t see that then you’re missing the point. To Jews, for instance, the concept of “original sin” is non-Biblical. Jews believe that people are not born in sin and the world is not a loathsome place. The Jewish thrust is to make this world a paradise for all humans. Hell is a concept that is foreign to most Jewish teachers, as is heaven. It is a religion of good deeds in this world, rather than salvation in the next.
“If the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has chosen to reveal Himself in a specific way, don’t you feel that we should accept Him exactly the way He has shown? One cannot know God unless God wants to be known in a specific way. Either Isaac or Ishmael was taken to Mt Moriah to be sacrificed. Moses said it was Isaac, Muhammed said it was Ishmael. Either one is right or both are wrong.”
Clint:
If my Hindu friends are excluded then I am excluded. They are closer to the Divine than I am and than most other Christians I know. They actually walk the walk. It is poverty that your religion would exclude these people solely because they do not acknowledge Jesus as their savior.
The bible is a users manual for the human race, with the major tenenant being Love others as you love yourself. Certainly no admonition for superiority.
Out of all the religions that I have looked at they all pretty much try and teach humans how to behave and lead a good life. And that is what Jesus did he tried to teach us how to lead a good life here on earth. Was it preporation for heaven maybe so, but it sure helps with life on earth too.
And I’m still laughing.
And I’m done with you. Jesus himself could show up and tell you how wrong you are and you’d still insist you had the 411 on salvation. Zealots are as zealots do. Enjoy your small minded life.