Submitted By: Mike Spindell, Guest Blogger
I believe that it is impossible to deal with any problem until one understands the underlying nature of that problem. The analogy of a Physician treating the symptoms of a patient, but ignoring the cause of those symptoms, comes to mind. We have the medicine to deal with the specific manifestation of an illness like a headache and a fever, but in ameliorating the discomfort of the symptoms, we may miss the underlying pathology. This happened to me last March when shortly after being prescribed a change in the anti-rejection medicines that keep me alive after my heart transplant, I began to get so sick that I needed hospitalization in intensive care. I won’t bore you with the grimy details of this sudden downturn in health, but I must note that my most important bodily functions began to shut down. What is curious about this incident is that my wife, who is internet savvy, immediately began to suggest to my Doctors that I was having a bad reaction to the medicinal change. At first they ignored her as they had Department Heads in Cardiology, Immunology, Infectious Diseases, Neurology, Proctology, Urology and even Dermatology come in to examine me and pore over my medical charts. Finally, in response to my wife’s unfailing advocacy, they returned me to my prior anti-rejection medication. To my Physician’s surprise and possible chagrin the symptoms almost immediately began to abate and within in days I was home from the hospital and on the mend.
While the story above may seem to be far afield from my topic today, I use it to illustrate how even the best minds can be distracted from an underlying pathology by the symptoms it presents. The pathology I want to deal with in this piece is that of our America becoming a country increasingly divided between rich and poor. We are a country at war with itself. That war is one defined by social/economic class and by skin color. The manifestations of the “warfare” are to be seen in our political system and the mock battles between “conservatives” and “liberals” for the soul of the nation. Yet the two dominant parties are both financed, thus controlled, by those who are extremely wealthy. Their party differences seem only to be ones of degree. By degree I mean the Republican’s are in favor of an all out war on those of lower economic status, while the Democrat’s seek to ameliorate the effects upon them, but continue the economic dominance of that miniscule percentage of our people. To my mind the problem of economic inequality in our country is merely a symptom of an underlying psychological mindset of those with wealth and thus great power. Those of us who would change the equation between wealth and class find ourselves fighting the “symptoms” of this class warfare, but these “symptoms” confuse our cause. On a macrocosmic scale the “battles” in this “warfare” are “fought” via political ideologies based on theories by “great” economists and social commentators. To my mind these are “mock battles” because they are involved only in symptoms misdiagnosed by “experts”. Permit me to explain.
Consider the Koch Brothers, whose wealth was estimated in Forbes Magazine to be $36 billion each. http://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/morning_call/2013/09/koch-brothers-net-worth-36-billion.html Were these brothers to stop all economic activity today it would be reasonable to assume that all their progeny and future progeny, would have enough money to not have to work for perhaps 20 generations to come. The simple truth is that barring some heretofore unsuspected catastrophe, that much wealth would allow the bearers to live comfortably through even the harshest social upheaval one could imagine. Even violent revolutions, as those we’ve seen in Russia and in China, were such that many of the wealthiest in those societies were able to escape the “Revolution” with their lives and their wealth intact. Yet these brothers, who are tied for fourth on Forbes list of the “100 Wealthiest American’s, are arguably the most active people politically in this country and their activism is all focused on ensuring the primacy of themselves and their class. What can it be then that motivates people like the Koch Brothers, who have far more wealth than they can conceivably manage to use in their lifetimes, to be so set on ensuring the that their class will be supreme in America and in the world? I suggest that the answer has nothing to do with either politics or economics. I assert that it is a battle of “good” versus “evil”, but that those terms are rendered meaningless if applied in their normal moral contexts.
The leadership in this country’s war against the lower classes are fighting this “war” because they deem themselves to be the repositories of “virtue” and also the most capable, therefore the most deserving people to lead. This is why I believe that we could throw out the normal conceptions of “good” versus “evil” when we try to conceptualize what is going on here. Class Warfare in America is being waged because most of our wealthiest people believe they are acting morally in waging it. They see themselves as representing all that is “good” in humanity and they are fighting the “evil” of those who would take from society without “producing” anything. To understand the basis of the struggle being waged politically in our country, we must understand that it has developed from psychological suppositions, rather than socio-economic principles.
“A study of social class — defined by annual income and by education-level — finds that “Social class rank was positively associated with essentialist beliefs [beliefs that genetics is more important than environment in explaining social class]. … Social class rank was also positively associated with both belief in a just world … and meritocracy beliefs, … suggesting that upper-class … individuals are more likely to believe that society is fair and just than are their lower-class rank counterparts.”
This study, “Social Class Rank, Essentialism, and Punitive Judgment,” was published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, and was performed by Michael W. Kraus and Dacher Keltner, two leading social scientists, whose investigations of the moralities that are applied respectively by the rich and by the poor, are contributing importantly to our understanding of society, of politics, of law, and of economics.
“This research found that “Upper-class … individuals were more likely to endorse beliefs that social class is an inherent, stable, and biologically determined social category relative to their lower-class … counterparts. Moreover, this pattern emerged after accounting for both political attitudes and material resource measures of social class. … Beliefs that society is fair and just explained the tendency among upper-class … individuals to endorse essentialist [biological] beliefs about social class.” Thus: the richer and more educated a person was, the more that he thought the world is just, and the more he attributed his being upper-class to his supposed inborn superiority, rather than to the circumstance of his having been born from rich parents who possessed the money to send him to college and perhaps to an expensive university.”
“Rich and educated people were more supportive of punishment as a means of retribution; poor and uneducated people were more supportive of punishment as a means of reforming the criminal and of (via fines, etc.) restoring to the victims what they had lost from the crime. “Moreover, relationships among social class rank, essentialist beliefs, and punitive judgments could not be accounted for by measures of individuals’ material resources or political orientation.” In other words: even “liberal” rich tend to be more favorable to retribution than are “liberal” poor.
In summary: “Upper-class … individuals would be more likely to endorse essentialist lay theories of social class categories (i.e., that social class is founded in genetically based, biological differences) than would lower-class … individuals and … these beliefs would decrease support for restorative justice — which seeks to rehabilitate offenders, rather than punish unlawful action.” http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Rich-and-Educated-Beli-by-Eric-Zuesse-Deficit-funded-Tax-Cuts-To-Wealthy_Spread-The-Wealth_WEALTH-VS-ALTRUISM-IN-POLITICS_Wealth-Concentration-131202-193.html
Reading the above I think one can begin to limn the outlines of the motivation of the Koch Brothers and their allies. If you give it some thought it makes sense that rich people, especially the Koch Brothers would feel the way they do and act on it. By virtue of their birth they are wealthy beyond belief. They have lived lives where those around them cater to them. They have attended schools surrounded by others from their social class and they have no real experience when it comes to what life is like for the average person. When Mitt Romney gave the advice to college graduates to borrow $20,000 from their father and start a business he was being totally sincere. His father gave him $10 million to start Bain Capital after all. When I first started driving, one of my friends who came from a wealthy and indulgent family, asked me when I asked him to chip in for gas: “Why don’t you have your father give you a credit card, like mine does.” From his life experience how was he to know that my father couldn’t get a credit card for himself, much less give one to me. How then is someone born to great wealth able to understand what it is like to be born without their privileges? To someone like that poverty is merely an abstract concept.
Social Commentator Chris Hedges has even a more jaundiced view of the wealthy stemming from his childhood experiences living and going to school among them:
“Because we don’t understand the pathology of the rich. We’ve been saturated with cultural images and a kind of cultural deification of wealth and those who have wealth. We are being–you know, they present people of immense wealth as somehow leaders–oracles, even. And we don’t grasp internally what it is an oligarchic class is finally about or how venal and morally bankrupt they are. We need to recover the language of class warfare and grasp what is happening to us, and we need to shatter this self-delusion that somehow if, as Obama says, we work hard enough and study hard enough, we can be one of them. The fact is, the people who created the economic mess that we’re in were the best-educated people in the country–Larry Summers, a former president of Harvard, and others. The issue is not education. The issue is greed. And I, unfortunately, had the experience of being shipped off to a private boarding school at the age of ten as a scholarship student and live–I was one of 16 kids on scholarship, and I lived among the super-rich and I watched them. And I think much of my hatred of authority and my repugnance for the ruling elite comes from having been among them for so long.”
“People don’t understand the elite schools, even at the high school level, that they get–the kids get excellent educations, but they learn the whole culture of hundreds or thousands of years of how to rule. And a deep, rich understanding of it. Not only that and George Bush is a perfect example of that. Well, not so much an example of deep, rich understanding, but of how–you know, affirmative action for the rich. And I came–certainly my mother’s side of the family–from lower working class. I mean, people–one of my uncles lived in a trailer in Maine, and certainly people with no means. And I would juxtapose the world I was in with that world. And it was very clear that it wasn’t about intelligence or aptitude.
The fact is, if you’re poor, you only get one chance. If you’re wealthy like Bush, you get chance after chance after chance after chance. So you’re a C student at Andover, and you go to Yale, and you go to Harvard Business School, and you’re AWOL from your National Guard unit, and you’re a cokehead, and it doesn’t really matter. You don’t even really have a job till you’re 40 and you become president of the United States.
So that was what was particularly insidious, how those small, tight elite oligarchic circles perpetuated themselves and promoted mediocrity (because many of these people like Bush are very mediocre human beings) at the expense of the rest of us, and how with money they game the system. And, of course, now we live in an oligarchic state where we’ve been rendered utterly powerless, and the judiciary, the legislative, the executive branches all subservient to an oligarchic corporate elite. And the press is owned by an oligarchic corporate elite, which makes sure that any critique of them is never broadcast over the airwaves.” http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=11150
Chris Hedges is somewhat more polemical than I am. Although I come from a lower middle class background, with a father who had been in prison, I have had many wealthy friends in my life. Among them are people I still love and cherish. More than a few came from circumstances humbler than my own to achieve financial success in this world. Rather than begrudge their success I admire it and feel good for them. Some of my friends were born to moderate wealth, but have the insight to see that those less privileged than themselves are also deserving of consideration. Neither of those categories can be seen as representative of the “Rich” I’m discussing here. The fact is that I would have had no occasion in my life to meet, or become friends with people such as the Koch Brothers. The circles in which we travel are so completely different as to be analogous to different planets. In any event it is not my purpose to demonize those such as the Koch’s, but to understand their motivations so that their hold on power which has resulted in class warfare can be fought. An apt question for me would be, given the above, how do I differentiate between being wealthy and being rich enough to be beyond the reach of social norms? Being in fact wealthy enough to create one’s own social norms. My own rough dividing line, with some possible exceptions, is that if you are worth more than $100 million then you are in the league I’m talking about. However, even that standard deserves a caveat.
Robinson Cano, the All Star Second Baseman for the New York Yankees just signed a contract with the Seattle Mariners for $150 million. Alex Rodriguez the team’s putative Third Baseman in working on a contract that has earned him well over $100 million and the contract of Derek Jeter the shortstop is also in the $100 million range. Yet neither of these players will ever have the influence on world affairs of those who I am dealing with. The reason is that the equation of the “rich and powerful” must be tempered by social class considerations. In our society professional athletes may make fortunes, but they are never taken seriously for their wealth. Yet the owners of professional sports teams are taken seriously and even esteemed. This is proven by the public’s disdain by athletes who use their skills to bargain successfully for lucrative contracts. The sympathy of the public has been shown to be overwhelmingly against the athlete and for ownership. The reason is that the athlete is not considered by the general public to be in the same class as the multi-billionaire owner. The athlete is of the “blue collar” class, while the owner is considered a “patrician”. This is a real social distinction that cannot be discounted in examining this subject.
Another factor that I think needs to be taken into account when one looks beyond the “symptoms” of economic class warfare in this country is religion. We know that many of those of wealth who are the greatest antagonists in class warfare in this country are on the surface deeply religious people. How can some devout Christians for instance, based on Jesus’ teachings, believe that the poor and meek should suffer? Let us again turn to the example of Mitt Romney for guidance. Romney, the scion of a very prominent Mormon family was brought up in a world of privilege, living a quite blessed life. Is it any stretch of the imagination to believe that he sees himself and his class as being blessed by God? Why would Mitt doubt that it is through God’s intervention that he is living such a perfect life? Conversely, it is no strain of that kind of logic to see the poor as unworthy and unproductive because the evidence is that they have received little of God’s blessings. Thus when Romney was surreptitiously recorded telling an appreciative audience of people from similarly wealthy backgrounds that “47% of the people in this country are unproductive”, he was also connoting that they deserved their fates. With human’s pervasive tendency to be self-justifying it is quite natural to see the benefits you personally perceived as evidence of not only a “greater plan”, but as further evidence that you are someone who is “above” the ordinary individual.
The feeling that you as an individual have been “singled out” by God has real consequences in a person’s behavior, since if they have “God’s Blessings”, then their actions would be those condoned by God. The fact that almost all organized religion has enjoyed a symbiotic relationship with wealth and power is also not to be dismissed, in that organized religion has long bestowed blessings upon those already privileged. Let’s look at some of the consequences of this today. For one writer the answer to the question of whether the wealth lie, steal and cheat more than the rest of us is:
“yes” — in certain circumstances. The research supporting this conclusion was not conducted by Occupy Wall Street, but at the University of California, Berkeley, where social psychologist Paul Piff and a team of graduate students devised a series of experiments to assess the effect of wealth on ethical behavior. Their paper, published at the end of February in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, suggests that the rich are more likely to cut corners than others when confronted with a number of ethical challenges.”
After detailing the studies the author goes on to write:
“The study also tested people’s willingness to accept better grades than they had earned, to lie to job applicants in order to earn a larger bonus, even to pilfer candy from a jar meant for children. In all cases, the wealthier you were the more likely you were to behave badly.
So what’s the deal — are the rich less ethical than the rest of us? Not necessarily, according to Piff. But they do have a greater sense of personal entitlement. If you have money, you come to see it as your due. The affluent view wealth as a virtue, and their own wealth as proof of their own hard work and innate worth. They are rich, in other words, because (in their own minds at least) they deserve it.
And because their feeling of self worth are tied to their ability to acquire wealth, the rich often feel driven to continue to do so — long after their most lavish material desires are met. The insane feeding frenzy on Wall Street prior to the crash may be less about greed than a species of machismo. Money, for the rich, is not just a medium to purchase things; it is a measure of status in that rarefied world where you are judged by the heft of your take home pay.
“It’s not that the rich are innately bad,” Piff said, “but as you rise in the ranks — whether as a person or a nonhuman primate — you become more self-focused.”
And also isolated, cut off from others and from the standards of the community at large, the study concluded. Unlike the poor, who have to rely on their network of friends, family and neighbors to help them get through tough economic times, wealth buys one a certain independence from others. The rich don’t have to make the same compromises and accommodations as the rest of us do. They are accustomed to getting their own way. They are also used to getting away with things. Witness the bafflement, then outrage on Wall Street when it was suggested that the big wheels there who had acted fraudulently should be held criminally accountable for their misdeeds.
Living in a bubble of extreme wealth also fosters what has been called “the compassion deficit.” As one gets richer, it becomes increasingly difficult to identify with those in need. Romney’s statement that he was not worried about the poor, because they are protected by the safety net is a case in point. As the income gap widens, many are losing their ability even to imagine what life might be like on the other side of the divide.” http://www.opednews.com/articles/Do-the-Wealthy-Lie-Cheat-by-Richard-Schiffman-120418-742.html
Yet another study bears out these findings as presented in the abstract from the study:
“Seven studies using experimental and naturalistic methods reveal that upper-class individuals behave more unethically than lower-class individuals. In studies 1 and 2, upper-class individuals were more likely to break the law while driving, relative to lower-class individuals. In follow-up laboratory studies, upper-class individuals were more likely to exhibit unethical decision-making tendencies (study 3), take valued goods from others (study 4), lie in a negotiation (study 5), cheat to increase their chances of winning a prize (study 6), and endorse unethical behavior at work (study 7) than were lower-class individuals. Mediator and moderator data demonstrated that upper-class individuals’ unethical tendencies are accounted for, in part, by their more favorable attitudes toward greed.” (Note some of these studies are referenced in the quote above) http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/02/21/1118373109.abstract
Finally there is this abstract of a study published in “The American Journal of Psychiatry” about the psyches of the children of the super-rich:
“Because they have little parental contact, many children of the very rich lack self-esteem and clear role models, resulting in shallow values and pathological narcissism. Low self-awareness and the absence of great suffering work against therapeutic progress, as do the efforts of the parents, who may feel threatened, and countertransference feelings of envy or anger by middle-class therapists. A supportive psychotherapeutic relationship is the most likely means of developing trust and self-discipline in these patients.” http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleID=156685
Those who have ready many of my past guest blogs are quite familiar where I stand on the issue of class warfare. What I have been confronted with from some commenter’s in the past is well you’ve described the issue what should we do about it. This post is the beginning of my answering those questions because I think before suggesting solutions we must understand the real problem and spread that understanding as far and wide as possible. For further perspective on the need to spread the message I offer this perspective from an author who uses the love for Dicken’s “A Christmas Carol” and Schulz’s “Charlie Brown who keeps thinking that Lucy will hold the ball for him to kick” as metaphors for mistaken liberal beliefs on how to confront their opposition:
“Todayʼs liberals and progressives, comprising the Democratic Party, still believe the American conservative who espouses a free market-I got mine-you get yours philosophy can be changed if only shown the damage such a viewpoint engenders. They believe the Dickensian myth that care for others and love of social justice lies just below the surface of callous disregard for the common good. This Charlie Brown naivete pervades the political establishment on the left. Along with their profits, the conservative money-making machine takes this passive hopefulness to the bank, an asset in the painting of the left as creating an underclass of the lazy and dependent. The establishment left is manifestly afraid of conflict and believes that reason, carefully pressed in the service of political argument, can sway their opponents. When Harry Reid finally invoked “the nuclear option,” the reaction from the right was one of disbelief. The left was acting against its own myth of influencing change by reason and sentiment.
Despite Dickens, change did not come to mid-19th century English society through the conversion of the moneyed classes to altruism. It came about through struggle and vision of how economic and technological forces could be used to temper the power and greed of those who would hold onto wealth at the cost of a depressed and growing underclass. What did change Scrooge was his own loneliness in regard to his inability to convince others of the rightness of dismissing a concern for others in the pursuit of wealth. Without Marley to share his philosophy of greed, he became a victim of his own self-doubt. Perhaps Dickens, in fooling us into believing people change of their own accord, did point out a truth that the soft “Charlie Brown” like left could learn in dealing with money obsessed right. Do not be afraid to use power in isolating them in their own obsession. If you want change, then you must become the agent of change. Charlie Brown never did get this central fact of life. He goes on living with disappointment engendered by the hope Lucy will change. Lucy, in her craftiness, realizes she can go on enjoying her one-upping of Charlie Brown by enticing him to hope she will change and become cooperatively nice. She knows it is not going to happen. Change is the responsibility of the one wanting change.
The promise of hope and change proclaimed in the 2008 elections has been blocked by an unchanging minority in the legislative branch of government with the collusion of moneyed interests and gerrymandered voting blocs. Hoping for change will change little or nothing. It is the hopers who must change finding the courage to risk upsetting the recalcitrant opponents of a fairer and more just society. Take the ball away from the Lucy’s and use a tee or find someone else who can be trusted to hold the ball in place.” http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ron-cebik/ebenezer-scrooge-and-lucy_b_4434656.html
When it comes to confronting the reality of class warfare in the United States which is creating an ever widening gap between rich and poor I tend to agree with the author Ron Cebik above. Those who would create a feudal corporate society and turn most of us into serfs will not easily relinquish their power, since as I’ve tried to show they believe that they not only have a right to it, but that they are the only ones competent to hold it. If, as I do, you want to create a just society that feels and acts as if we are all inter-connected, then we all must confront the notion that wealth comes as a blessing from above and that because of that is sacrosanct. The sad seamy truth is that far too often the seeds of great wealth have been sown in a soil of corruption and the fruits of it are quite bitter. The super rich among us are not virtuous people, but unfortunately they do not have the insight to see this about themselves. We must disabuse them of their false notions by clarifying the nature of their game.
Submitted By: Mike Spindell, Guest Blogger
Further articles of interest on this subject:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-moyers/class-war_b_4432261.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-silver/jim-himes-hr-992-corruption_b_4426121.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/we-have-met-the-enemy-and_b_4437294.html
Hint to youngsters out there. That numerous segment of our population known as the “baby boomers” are starting to retire. You’d be amazed at the number of chores they’re willing to pay to have done.
A word to the wise.
Both of my daughters got newspaper routes at the age of 10 and worked as papergirls for the next 5 years. Each grew their routes through sales pitches and a reputation for dependability. (Sadly, paper routes are a thing of the past in this area of the country.) At the age of 14 they each started babysitting and once again grew their list of clientele through reputations for dependability. At the age of 16 both went to work for McDonalds.
The twin boys down the street at the age of 10, not being able to get paper routes, went door to door offering their services for lawn mowing, snow removal, leaf raking, dog walking, car washing, even garbage can duty (taking the cans out to the road in the morning and returning them after school). Their father impressed upon them the need for dependability and attention to detail. The boys started babysitting at the age of 14. Their lawn care, leaf clean up, and snow removal jobs became so numerous that they did not have to go to work for McDonalds when they turned 16 and opted to remain their own bosses. Last year they both left for college and from what I understand have part time jobs with the university’s grounds maintenance crew. (They both have all the licenses necessary to spread fertilizer and work with lawn chemicals having taken the necessary classes and paid for the licenses while in high school.)
Their youngest brother opted out of their handyman business electing instead to go to work at the age of 11 as a caddy at one of the three local golf courses. He’s a senior in high school now and has just been awarded a full paid scholarship at a local university. The scholarship is provided by some golf association and strictly for caddys. He plans to continue caddying through college. He’s also hoping to win a place on the University’s golf team as he’s quite a good player and presently the best player on his high school’s golf team.
People who claim that Child Labor Laws are keeping young people who want to work from working are full of crap. Young people with imagination and a strong work ethic, guided by parents who stress the importance of dependability and responsibility, have no problem what so ever. (And, I gotta tell you, the “Christmas gifts” from happy clients are substantial. 😉 )
Blouise wrote: “People who claim that Child Labor Laws are keeping young people who want to work from working are full of crap.”
It is almost impossible to talk with you because you change the subject. Nobody claimed that young people who want to work are kept from working. What was said is that laws prohibit a company from hiring children under the age of 14. There are numerous exceptions to the laws, such as baby sitting, newspaper routes, agricultural jobs, and working for one’s own family. Of course, there also are exceptions where companies break the law and do it anyway.
The fact that you had children working jobs at the age of 10 proves that the laws prohibiting individuals under the age of 14 from being hired is stupid and immoral.
Davidm2575, as you know, those who believe that government regulations work, are not willing to look at the underbelly of the beast. We have kids being enslaved as prostitutes in this country today and the fascists are falling back on the age old “child labor laws” that was such a minuscule problem, that it could be considered a myth, by realistic standards. If children were really being abused to any degree, would not friends, family and other members of the community do something about it. That fact is that government regulations by and large to not accomplish their intended goals and as you and others point out, cause other problems that take away from our freedom and liberty. They just don’t like to talk about these things as it puts a bit of a crimp in their ideology.
But when you tell them you don’t really like child labor laws, than of course they comeback with the BS they spew forth, “what, you want to go back to the time when we abused our children by making them walk miles in deep snow and work 14 hour days without breaks in closed building with not heat.’
Please, when I was 15 and 17, I woke up at 7:00 for school, got off work after at 6:00 and even worked all day Saturday. Then I would come home at night, to see my father feeding the younger boys, as Mom was addicted to big pharma’s drug campaign. Of course I chipped in and helped either prepare food or pick something up if necessary as I was hungry as well. I can’t remember “not” ever having to do the dishes after supper for our family of seven, as I was the second oldest. As a young person, I was willing to do what was necessary for my family and myself.
Progressives are pathetic. Look at how they behave themselves on these threads. The one thing that I haven’t gotten from them is just how shallow their ideology is and this has given me some good ideas on my next book.
Bron,
“Who in their right mind would want to work in an unsafe environment? And who in their right mind would knowingly provide an unsafe environment?”
Answer 1: nobody, but you need to write with more care as your question is “want to . . .”
Answer 2: anybody that thinks they can get away with it.
Take your Marxists insults and shove them, Bron. You have continually put me in a pigeon hole of your own definition so that yoiu could bounce your ill-gotten quotes off me; oblivious to any nuance offered.
hskiprob,
I stated the law correctly. The only problem is that you consider reasonable protective restrictions on children in the workplace is onerous. I cannot help you with that sad philosophy. And yes, even though there are far too many adults without jobs, that is no excuse to take advantage of children. Read some of Elaine’s links and some history and maybe then you will see that children need to be protected in the workplace and given incentives to stay in school.
Bron,
“why do you think people like me and Skip would be for child labor?”
If you want to include yourself, feel free; it’s your decision though, not mine.
Read the thread, Bron, it’s all there.
hskiprob,
Yeah, it realy sucks when somebody actually reads your work at your invitation, doesn’t it? How’s your self-destructing wind turbine going?
Child Labor in U.S. History
(Child Labor Education Project)
http://www.continuetolearn.uiowa.edu/laborctr/child_labor/about/us_history.html
Excerpt:
Forms of child labor, including indentured servitude and child slavery, have existed throughout American history. As industrialization moved workers from farms and home workshops into urban areas and factory work, children were often preferred, because factory owners viewed them as more manageable, cheaper, and less likely to strike. Growing opposition to child labor in the North caused many factories to move to the South. By 1900, states varied considerably in whether they had child labor standards and in their content and degree of enforcement. By then, American children worked in large numbers in mines, glass factories, textiles, agriculture, canneries, home industries, and as newsboys, messengers, bootblacks, and peddlers.
In the early decades of the twentieth century, the numbers of child laborers in the U.S. peaked. Child labor began to decline as the labor and reform movements grew and labor standards in general began improving, increasing the political power of working people and other social reformers to demand legislation regulating child labor. Union organizing and child labor reform were often intertwined, and common initiatives were conducted by organizations led by working women and middle class consumers, such as state Consumers’ Leagues and Working Women’s Societies. These organizations generated the National Consumers’ League in 1899 and the National Child Labor Committee in 1904, which shared goals of challenging child labor, including through anti-sweatshop campaigns and labeling programs. The National Child Labor Committee’s work to end child labor was combined with efforts to provide free, compulsory education for all children, and culminated in the passage of the Fair Labor Standards Act in 1938, which set federal standards for child labor.
Lewis Hine and the History of U.S. Child Labor: Echoes
By Michael Burgan
Jan 19, 2012
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-19/lewis-hine-and-the-history-of-u-s-child-labor-echoes.html
Excerpt:
From 1908 to 1924, Hine took photographs for the National Child Labor Committee, a private organization that was then leading the charge against child labor. He crisscrossed the country, covering some 100,000 miles and taking about 5,000 photos.
He worked undercover, since most mine owners and mill operators didn’t want him, or anyone else, documenting children at work. At times he said he was a fire inspector or a salesman, and he learned how to surreptitiously take notes on a pad he kept in his pocket. When he did present himself as a curious photographer, Hine told company owners he merely wanted to shoot their machinery. He waved a child or two into the photo, he said, to show the scale of the equipment.
The Progressives faced several obstacles in their struggle against child labor. Children had worked alongside their parents for thousands of years on farms and in households, and as the Industrial Revolution took off, they went to work in factories, as well.
Mill and mine owners had an entrenched interest in youth labor. They could pay children less than adults, and kids wouldn’t join unions or strike to protest dangerous working conditions. And the owners insisted that certain jobs required the nimble fingers of the young. Samuel Slater, who built the first U.S. textile mills in Rhode Island, used children as young as 7 to operate his spinning machines.
States often helped businesses by ignoring whatever child-labor statutes might have been on the books. Pennsylvania law, for example, said boys had to be at least 14 to work in the mines or 12 to work in a colliery. Parents, who welcomed the extra income that children brought in, produced forged documents, and mine owners looked the other way.
hskiprob,
I’ve got a list of books to I’d like to recommend to you:
– “Griftopia: Bubble Machines, Vampire Squids, and the Long Con That Is Breaking America”—later re-titled “Griftopia: A Story of Bankers, Politicians, and the Most Audacious Power Grab in American History” by Matt Taibbi
– “It Takes a Pillage: An Epic Tale of Power, Deceit, and Untold Trillions” by Nomi Prins
– “Free Lunch: How the Wealthiest Americans Enrich Themselves at Government Expense (And Stick You with the Bill)” by David Cay Johnston
– “Capital Offense: How Washington’s Wise Men Turned America’s Future over to Wall Street” by Michael Hirsh
– “The Big Short: Inside the Doomsday Machine” by Michael Lewis
– “The Best Way to Rob a Bank Is to Own One: How Corporate Executives and Politicians Looted the S&L Industry” by William K. Black
gbk:
why do you think people like me and Skip would be for child labor? Children should do some chores around the house to the level of their ability but working in a factory 18 hours a day, no, I dont think that is right. And all of the capitalists I know are against that as well. That is some Marxist stereotype which always seems to get brought up along with safe working conditions.
Who in their right mind would want to work in an unsafe environment? And who in their right mind would knowingly provide an unsafe environment? More Marxist tripe.
I have worked dangerous jobs before and the companies made it a point to promote safety with training and rewards for safe work. Accidents happen but they were mostly the fault of the workers. The 2 I had were my fault and most of the others I heard about were worker error.
Have you ever worked in a dangerous job like mining, construction or the oil field? Have you ever seen, in this country or any developed country, children under the age of 16 working 18 hours a day in a factory? I havent even seen adults working 18 hours a day in a factory in this country. For one thing their productivity would be for sh*t and turn over would be very high.
In a good economy labor sells itself for the most money and the best conditions. Poor economies are when labor is taken advantage of through low wages and unsafe working conditions. When labor is plentiful in respect to jobs, they procure low wages and negative work conditions.
When the economy was booming around here, McDonalds was paying $12/hour plus benefits to entice workers.
gbk:
“. . . but actually I’m in awe of all one could possibly learn in a lifetime. I don’t know where to start — even after a lifetime.”
you have that right. It boggles one’s mind. You could spend a single lifetime on one subject and probably not learn everything there is to know about it.
Human knowledge is pretty amazing when you think about it, all of the things we know and all of the things yet to be discovered.
Income Inequality Is Hurting The Economy, 3 Dozen Economists Say
By CHRISTOPHER S. RUGABER
12/17/13
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/17/income-inequality-economy_n_4460725.html
Excerpt:
WASHINGTON (AP) — The growing gap between the richest Americans and everyone else isn’t bad just for individuals.
It’s hurting the U.S. economy.
So says a majority of more than three dozen economists surveyed last week by The Associated Press. Their concerns tap into a debate that’s intensified as middle-class pay has stagnated while wealthier households have thrived.
A key source of the economists’ concern: Higher pay and outsize stock market gains are flowing mainly to affluent Americans. Yet these households spend less of their money than do low- and middle-income consumers who make up most of the population but whose pay is barely rising.
Elaine, this has been happening for at least 35 years. By 1985, the average family could not longer afford, the average price home.
Let’s tax the wealthy more and raise minimum wages? Let’s regulate the stock market more so that less money flows to the affluent?
You see how ridiculous these statements sound.
I just starting reading a book “How Capitalism saved America; The untold history of our country, from the Pilgrims to the Present’. by Thomas J. Dilorenzo, author of the best seller The Real Lincoln and professor of economics at Loyola College in Maryland.
It dispels many of the myths about capitalism that the anti-capitalists have been passing around in the 20th century. Many of the things that we have even discussed on the various threads.
gbk,
I was very excited to learn that you were a time machine until I read down some more and realized that Skipples had not misspelled the acronym TARDIS but was instead angry at Hungarians.
hskiprob,
Maybe we should reinstate the draft?
What are your thoughts on that, hskiprob?
It would give valuable job lessons to the kids, wouldn’t it? There’s nothing like following orders to teach respect.
But then the upper class would whine at the loss of their genes, of the real cost of their cultural fortifications. Can’t have that, can we?
gbk, Isn’t the military draft what is called involuntary servitude protected by the Constitution? There are no rights that you fascist aren’t willing to trounce on, to try to make others including the wealthy do what you think is fair in society. Even though your entire statist ideology is based on myths and ignorance, you keeps pushing them forward into the mainstream. Sad dude.
hskiprob,
“rafflaw. You all are really worried about child labor laws? Hell, 10% of the adults don’t even have jobs.”
What an excellent reason to send the kids back into the mines; make them fabricate cloth and garments for eighteen hours a day; live in company barracks, and spend their meager wages at the friendly company store.
“When an entire community sits back and allows children to be abused, there is a systemic problem much deeper than we want to admit.”
So what are you saying? Do you note your own hypocrisy?
To not differentiate the history of child labor in the 19th and early 20th centuries, (Bron’s favorites), with children learning the value of work is a sadistic perspective at best.
“Government generally just tries to patch the problem.”
What problem is this? Can you be specific?
“With child labor laws it was an easy patch, but the underlying problem is still there.”
What “underlying problem” are you referencing, hskiprob? The problem of labor costs?
Could you elaborate?
Lottakatz
I believe he is referring to the residents of the village in Hungary named Tard.
It is lead by a gentleman named Leo.
They are considered to be both arrogant and critical of others.
Darren Smith, One of the current comedians used the word tard, as an abbreviation for retardation. The heavy set guy who makes fun of himself.
hskiprob,
“The only time you come alive on a thread is to provide worthless BS. You’re a waste of time and one mistake I will not make again.”
Excuse me for not reading the rest of your bile — offered above.
So, just so we both understand — what is the, “one mistake I will not make again?”
Is it recognizing my, “worthless BS,” and/or being, “a waste of time?”
This is two mistakes, is it not?
Gbk, It is recognizing your BS as a waste of time. No wonder your a progressive.
mespo, Great story. I would have loved to have you coach one of my kids. I’m sorry you miss coaching, but I respect your decision. I played football in high school, offensive tackle. I was a starter for 3 years but just an average player. I had a blow out fracture of my orbital bone and severe concussion my junior year. I came back my senior year but I never loved it like I did baseball. Al Toon, who played here in Madison and for the Jets, had numerous concussions. I hear he has always been conflicted about his son, Nick, playing.
Your pointing out the support you got from that kid’s father shows you understand on a profound level how parents can be an asset or a liability. You get “tough love” and coaches who demand respect for opponents are becoming a dying breed. Texts like the one from your former player make it all worth it. It’s weird, I’ll have guys in their mid to late 30’s come up to me in the grocery store and say, “Hi, coach.”
Hskiprob: “One of the tards on one of the other threads criticized me….”
“Your an arrogant tard and really just a part of the problem with this country.
****
Yeah, that’s some high level writing there buddy, keep it classy.
Also “Your” sb You’re”
nick:
Talk about buttons. I had a kid about twelve years ago who was the best runner in the league. On the last game before the playoffs he scored on a kick return and the proceeded to taunt the trailing kids who had trash-talked him before the game. I pulled him and he only got in the second half. I made sure we never called his number and he blocked the whole second half. It was an easy win and he played only about ten plays.
Like any good kid he was livid but his dad 0–a former D1 player from TX –knew what I was doing. The next game was the playoffs and I benched him. He was in shock and he asked me why. I told him he forfeited his shot by showing up the other team and also shaming his own teammates. I told him he could make it up the second half if he wanted to do that. he droop-headed back to the sideline O-huddle.
We were trailing 12-7 at the half. The kid roared back into the game in the 3rd quarter scoring twice and rushing for over 125 yards. He scored the winning conversion with :34 to play.
He went on to play FB at Va Tech. He texted me from the Orange Bowl to let me know he remembered the only time he was ever “benched” while a starter. He thanked me for it.
My four children have a great work ethic, but we’re not born with it, it’s taught. All four of my children worked during high school, undergrad and grad school. So Nick Spinelli, I suggest you don’t cast aspertions on my children.