Our “Virtuous” Rich

Submitted By: Mike Spindell, Guest Blogger

104248208I believe that it is impossible to deal with any problem until one understands the underlying nature of that problem. The analogy of a Physician treating the symptoms of a patient, but ignoring the cause of those symptoms, comes to mind. We have the medicine to deal with the specific manifestation of an illness like a headache and a fever, but in ameliorating the discomfort of the symptoms, we may miss the underlying pathology. This happened to me last March when shortly after being prescribed a change in the anti-rejection medicines that keep me alive after my heart transplant, I began to get so sick that I needed hospitalization in intensive care. I won’t bore you with the grimy details of this sudden downturn in health, but I must note that my most important bodily functions began to shut down. What is curious about this incident is that my wife, who is internet savvy, immediately began to suggest to my Doctors that I was having a bad reaction to the medicinal change. At first they ignored her as they had Department Heads in Cardiology, Immunology, Infectious Diseases, Neurology, Proctology, Urology and even Dermatology come in to examine me and pore over my medical charts. Finally, in response to my wife’s unfailing advocacy, they returned me to my prior anti-rejection medication. To my Physician’s surprise and possible chagrin the symptoms almost immediately began to abate and within in days I was home from the hospital and on the mend.

While the story above may seem to be far afield from my topic today, I use it to illustrate how even the best minds can be distracted from an underlying pathology by the symptoms it presents. The pathology I want to deal with in this piece is that of our America becoming a country increasingly divided between rich and poor. We are a country at war with itself. That war is one defined by social/economic class and by skin color. The manifestations of the “warfare” are to be seen in our political system and the mock battles between “conservatives” and “liberals” for the soul of the nation. Yet the two dominant parties are both financed, thus controlled, by those who are extremely wealthy. Their party differences seem only to be ones of degree. By degree I mean the Republican’s are in favor of an all out war on those of lower economic status, while the Democrat’s seek to ameliorate the effects upon them, but continue the economic dominance of that miniscule percentage of our people. To my mind the problem of economic inequality in our country is merely a symptom of an underlying psychological mindset of those with wealth and thus great power. Those of us who would change the equation between wealth and class find ourselves fighting the “symptoms” of this class warfare, but these “symptoms” confuse our cause. On a macrocosmic scale the “battles” in this “warfare” are “fought” via political ideologies based on theories by “great” economists and social commentators. To my mind these are “mock battles” because they are involved only in symptoms misdiagnosed by “experts”. Permit me to explain.

Consider the Koch Brothers, whose wealth was estimated in Forbes Magazine to be $36 billion each.  http://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/morning_call/2013/09/koch-brothers-net-worth-36-billion.html Were these brothers to stop all economic activity today it would be reasonable to assume that all their progeny and future progeny, would have enough money to not have to work for perhaps 20 generations to come. The simple truth is that barring some heretofore unsuspected catastrophe, that much wealth would allow the bearers to live comfortably through even the harshest social upheaval one could imagine. Even violent revolutions, as those we’ve seen in Russia and in China, were such that many of the wealthiest in those societies were able to escape the “Revolution” with their lives and their wealth intact. Yet these brothers, who are tied for fourth on Forbes list of the “100 Wealthiest American’s, are arguably the most active people politically in this country and their activism is all focused on ensuring the primacy of themselves and their class. What can it be then that motivates people like the Koch Brothers, who have far more wealth than they can conceivably manage to use in their lifetimes, to be so set on ensuring the that their class will be supreme in America and in the world? I suggest that the answer has nothing to do with either politics or economics. I assert that it is a battle of “good” versus “evil”, but that those terms are rendered meaningless if applied in their normal moral contexts.

The leadership in this country’s war against the lower classes are fighting this “war” because they deem themselves to be the repositories of “virtue” and also the most capable, therefore the most deserving people to lead. This is why I believe that we could throw out the normal conceptions of “good” versus “evil” when we try to conceptualize what is going on here. Class Warfare in America is being waged because most of our wealthiest people believe they are acting morally in waging it. They see themselves as representing all that is “good” in humanity and they are fighting the “evil” of those who would take from society without “producing” anything. To understand the basis of the struggle being waged politically in our country, we must understand that it has developed from psychological suppositions, rather than socio-economic principles.

“A study of social class — defined by annual income and by education-level — finds that “Social class rank was positively associated with essentialist beliefs [beliefs that genetics is more important than environment in explaining social class]. … Social class rank was also positively associated with both belief in a just world … and meritocracy beliefs, … suggesting that upper-class … individuals are more likely to believe that society is fair and just than are their lower-class rank counterparts.”

This study,  “Social Class Rank, Essentialism, and Punitive Judgment,”  was published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, and was performed by Michael W. Kraus and Dacher Keltner, two leading social scientists, whose investigations of the moralities that are applied respectively by the rich and by the poor, are contributing importantly to our understanding of society, of politics, of law, and of economics.

“This research found that “Upper-class … individuals were more likely to endorse beliefs that social class is an inherent, stable, and biologically determined social category relative to their lower-class … counterparts. Moreover, this pattern emerged after accounting for both political attitudes and material resource measures of social class. … Beliefs that society is fair and just explained the tendency among upper-class … individuals to endorse essentialist [biological] beliefs about social class.” Thus: the richer and more educated a person was, the more that he thought the world is just, and the more he attributed his being upper-class to his supposed inborn superiority, rather than to the circumstance of his having been born from rich parents who possessed the money to send him to college and perhaps to an expensive university.”

“Rich and educated people were more supportive of punishment as a means of retribution; poor and uneducated people were more supportive of punishment as a means of reforming the criminal and of (via fines, etc.) restoring to the victims what they had lost from the crime. “Moreover, relationships among social class rank, essentialist beliefs, and punitive judgments could not be accounted for by measures of individuals’ material resources or political orientation.” In other words: even “liberal” rich tend to be more favorable to retribution than are “liberal” poor.

In summary: “Upper-class … individuals would be more likely to endorse essentialist lay theories of social class categories (i.e., that social class is founded in genetically based, biological differences) than would lower-class … individuals and … these beliefs would decrease support for restorative justice — which seeks to rehabilitate offenders, rather than punish unlawful action.” http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Rich-and-Educated-Beli-by-Eric-Zuesse-Deficit-funded-Tax-Cuts-To-Wealthy_Spread-The-Wealth_WEALTH-VS-ALTRUISM-IN-POLITICS_Wealth-Concentration-131202-193.html

Reading the above I think one can begin to limn the outlines of the motivation of the Koch Brothers and their allies. If you give it some thought it makes sense that rich people, especially the Koch Brothers would feel the way they do and act on it. By virtue of their birth they are wealthy beyond belief. They have lived lives where those around them cater to them. They have attended schools surrounded by others from their social class and they have no real experience when it comes to what life is like for the average person. When Mitt Romney gave the advice to college graduates to borrow $20,000 from their father and start a business he was being totally sincere. His father gave him $10 million to start Bain Capital after all. When I first started driving, one of my friends who came from a wealthy and indulgent family, asked me when I asked him to chip in for gas: “Why don’t you have your father give you a credit card, like mine does.” From his life experience how was he to know that my father couldn’t get a credit card for himself, much less give one to me. How then is someone born to great wealth able to understand what it is like to be born without their privileges? To someone like that poverty is merely an abstract concept.

Social Commentator Chris Hedges has even a more jaundiced view of the wealthy stemming from his childhood experiences living and going to school among them:

“Because we don’t understand the pathology of the rich. We’ve been saturated with cultural images and a kind of cultural deification of wealth and those who have wealth. We are being–you know, they present people of immense wealth as somehow leaders–oracles, even. And we don’t grasp internally what it is an oligarchic class is finally about or how venal and morally bankrupt they are. We need to recover the language of class warfare and grasp what is happening to us, and we need to shatter this self-delusion that somehow if, as Obama says, we work hard enough and study hard enough, we can be one of them. The fact is, the people who created the economic mess that we’re in were the best-educated people in the country–Larry Summers, a former president of Harvard, and others. The issue is not education. The issue is greed. And I, unfortunately, had the experience of being shipped off to a private boarding school at the age of ten as a scholarship student and live–I was one of 16 kids on scholarship, and I lived among the super-rich and I watched them. And I think much of my hatred of authority and my repugnance for the ruling elite comes from having been among them for so long.”

“People don’t understand the elite schools, even at the high school level, that they get–the kids get excellent educations, but they learn the whole culture of hundreds or thousands of years of how to rule. And a deep, rich understanding of it. Not only that and George Bush is a perfect example of that. Well, not so much an example of deep, rich understanding, but of how–you know, affirmative action for the rich. And I came–certainly my mother’s side of the family–from lower working class. I mean, people–one of my uncles lived in a trailer in Maine, and certainly people with no means. And I would juxtapose the world I was in with that world. And it was very clear that it wasn’t about intelligence or aptitude.

The fact is, if you’re poor, you only get one chance. If you’re wealthy like Bush, you get chance after chance after chance after chance. So you’re a C student at Andover, and you go to Yale, and you go to Harvard Business School, and you’re AWOL from your National Guard unit, and you’re a cokehead, and it doesn’t really matter. You don’t even really have a job till you’re 40 and you become president of the United States.

So that was what was particularly insidious, how those small, tight elite oligarchic circles perpetuated themselves and promoted mediocrity (because many of these people like Bush are very mediocre human beings) at the expense of the rest of us, and how with money they game the system. And, of course, now we live in an oligarchic state where we’ve been rendered utterly powerless, and the judiciary, the legislative, the executive branches all subservient to an oligarchic corporate elite. And the press is owned by an oligarchic corporate elite, which makes sure that any critique of them is never broadcast over the airwaves.” http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=11150

Chris Hedges is somewhat more polemical than I am. Although I come from a lower middle class background, with a father who had been in prison, I have had many wealthy friends in my life. Among them are people I still love and cherish. More than a few came from circumstances humbler than my own to achieve financial success in this world. Rather than begrudge their success I admire it and feel good for them. Some of my friends were born to moderate wealth, but have the insight to see that those less privileged than themselves are also deserving of consideration. Neither of those categories can be seen as representative of the “Rich” I’m discussing here. The fact is that I would have had no occasion in my life to meet, or become friends with people such as the Koch Brothers. The circles in which we travel are so completely different as to be analogous to different planets. In any event it is not my purpose to demonize those such as the Koch’s, but to understand their motivations so that their hold on power which has resulted in class warfare can be fought. An apt question for me would be, given the above, how do I differentiate between being wealthy and being rich enough to be beyond the reach of social norms? Being in fact wealthy enough to create one’s own social norms. My own rough dividing line, with some possible exceptions, is that if you are worth more than $100 million then you are in the league I’m talking about. However, even that standard deserves a caveat.

Robinson Cano, the All Star Second Baseman for the New York Yankees just signed a contract with the Seattle Mariners for $150 million. Alex Rodriguez the team’s putative Third Baseman in working on a contract that has earned him well over $100 million and the contract of Derek Jeter the shortstop is also in the $100 million range. Yet neither of these players will ever have the influence on world affairs of those who I am dealing with. The reason is that the equation of the “rich and powerful” must be tempered by social class considerations. In our society professional athletes may make fortunes, but they are never taken seriously for their wealth. Yet the owners of professional sports teams are taken seriously and even esteemed. This is proven by the public’s disdain by athletes who use their skills to bargain successfully for lucrative contracts. The sympathy of the public has been shown to be overwhelmingly against the athlete and for ownership. The reason is that the athlete is not considered by the general public to be in the same class as the multi-billionaire owner. The athlete is of the “blue collar” class, while the owner is considered a “patrician”. This is a real social distinction that cannot be discounted in examining this subject.

Another factor that I think needs to be taken into account when one looks beyond the “symptoms” of economic class warfare in this country is religion. We know that many of those of wealth who are the greatest antagonists in class warfare in this country are on the surface deeply religious people. How can some devout Christians for instance, based on Jesus’ teachings, believe that the poor and meek should suffer? Let us again turn to the example of Mitt Romney for guidance. Romney, the scion of a very prominent Mormon family was brought up in a world of privilege, living a quite blessed life. Is it any stretch of the imagination to believe that he sees himself and his class as being blessed by God? Why would Mitt doubt that it is through God’s intervention that he is living such a perfect life? Conversely, it is no strain of that kind of logic to see the poor as unworthy and unproductive because the evidence is that they have received little of God’s blessings. Thus when Romney was surreptitiously recorded telling an appreciative audience of people from similarly wealthy backgrounds that “47% of the people in this country are unproductive”, he was also connoting that they deserved their fates. With human’s pervasive tendency to be self-justifying it is quite natural to see the benefits you personally perceived as evidence of not only a “greater plan”, but as further evidence that you are someone who is “above” the ordinary individual.

The feeling that you as an individual have been “singled out” by God has real consequences in a person’s behavior, since if they have “God’s Blessings”, then their actions would be those condoned by God. The fact that almost all organized religion has enjoyed a symbiotic relationship with wealth and power is also not to be dismissed, in that organized religion has long bestowed blessings upon those already privileged. Let’s look at some of the consequences of this today. For one writer the answer to the question of whether the wealth lie, steal and cheat more than the rest of us is:

“yes” — in certain circumstances. The research supporting this conclusion was not conducted by Occupy Wall Street, but at the University of California, Berkeley, where social psychologist Paul Piff and a team of graduate students devised a series of experiments to assess the effect of wealth on ethical behavior. Their paper, published at the end of February in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, suggests that the rich are more likely to cut corners than others when confronted with a number of ethical challenges.”

After detailing the studies the author goes on to write:

“The study also tested people’s willingness to accept better grades than they had earned, to lie to job applicants in order to earn a larger bonus, even to pilfer candy from a jar meant for children. In all cases, the wealthier you were the more likely you were to behave badly.

So what’s the deal — are the rich less ethical than the rest of us? Not necessarily, according to Piff. But they do have a greater sense of personal entitlement. If you have money, you come to see it as your due. The affluent view wealth as a virtue, and their own wealth as proof of their own hard work and innate worth. They are rich, in other words, because (in their own minds at least) they deserve it.

And because their feeling of self worth are tied to their ability to acquire wealth, the rich often feel driven to continue to do so — long after their most lavish material desires are met. The insane feeding frenzy on Wall Street prior to the crash may be less about greed than a species of machismo. Money, for the rich, is not just a medium to purchase things; it is a measure of status in that rarefied world where you are judged by the heft of your take home pay.

“It’s not that the rich are innately bad,” Piff said, “but as you rise in the ranks — whether as a person or a nonhuman primate — you become more self-focused.”

And also isolated, cut off from others and from the standards of the community at large, the study concluded. Unlike the poor, who have to rely on their network of friends, family and neighbors to help them get through tough economic times, wealth buys one a certain independence from others. The rich don’t have to make the same compromises and accommodations as the rest of us do. They are accustomed to getting their own way. They are also used to getting away with things. Witness the bafflement, then outrage on Wall Street when it was suggested that the big wheels there who had acted fraudulently should be held criminally accountable for their misdeeds.

Living in a bubble of extreme wealth also fosters what has been called “the compassion deficit.” As one gets richer, it becomes increasingly difficult to identify with those in need. Romney’s statement that he was not worried about the poor, because they are protected by the safety net is a case in point. As the income gap widens, many are losing their ability even to imagine what life might be like on the other side of the divide.” http://www.opednews.com/articles/Do-the-Wealthy-Lie-Cheat-by-Richard-Schiffman-120418-742.html

Yet another study bears out these findings as presented in the abstract from the study:

“Seven studies using experimental and naturalistic methods reveal that upper-class individuals behave more unethically than lower-class individuals. In studies 1 and 2, upper-class individuals were more likely to break the law while driving, relative to lower-class individuals. In follow-up laboratory studies, upper-class individuals were more likely to exhibit unethical decision-making tendencies (study 3), take valued goods from others (study 4), lie in a negotiation (study 5), cheat to increase their chances of winning a prize (study 6), and endorse unethical behavior at work (study 7) than were lower-class individuals. Mediator and moderator data demonstrated that upper-class individuals’ unethical tendencies are accounted for, in part, by their more favorable attitudes toward greed.” (Note some of these studies are referenced in the quote above) http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/02/21/1118373109.abstract

Finally there is this abstract of a study published in “The American Journal of Psychiatry” about the psyches of the children of the super-rich:

“Because they have little parental contact, many children of the very rich lack self-esteem and clear role models, resulting in shallow values and pathological narcissism. Low self-awareness and the absence of great suffering work against therapeutic progress, as do the efforts of the parents, who may feel threatened, and countertransference feelings of envy or anger by middle-class therapists. A supportive psychotherapeutic relationship is the most likely means of developing trust and self-discipline in these patients.” http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleID=156685

Those who have ready many of my past guest blogs are quite familiar where I stand on the issue of class warfare. What I have been confronted with from some commenter’s in the past is well you’ve described the issue what should we do about it. This post is the beginning of my answering those questions because I think before suggesting solutions we must understand the real problem and spread that understanding as far and wide as possible. For further perspective on the need to spread the message I offer this perspective from an author who uses the love for Dicken’s “A Christmas Carol” and Schulz’s “Charlie Brown who keeps thinking that Lucy will hold the ball for him to kick” as  metaphors for mistaken liberal beliefs on how to confront their opposition:

“Todayʼs liberals and progressives, comprising the Democratic Party, still believe the American conservative who espouses a free market-I got mine-you get yours philosophy can be changed if only shown the damage such a viewpoint engenders. They believe the Dickensian myth that care for others and love of social justice lies just below the surface of callous disregard for the common good. This Charlie Brown naivete pervades the political establishment on the left. Along with their profits, the conservative money-making machine takes this passive hopefulness to the bank, an asset in the painting of the left as creating an underclass of the lazy and dependent. The establishment left is manifestly afraid of conflict and believes that reason, carefully pressed in the service of political argument, can sway their opponents. When Harry Reid finally invoked “the nuclear option,” the reaction from the right was one of disbelief. The left was acting against its own myth of influencing change by reason and sentiment.

Despite Dickens, change did not come to mid-19th century English society through the conversion of the moneyed classes to altruism. It came about through struggle and vision of how economic and technological forces could be used to temper the power and greed of those who would hold onto wealth at the cost of a depressed and growing underclass. What did change Scrooge was his own loneliness in regard to his inability to convince others of the rightness of dismissing a concern for others in the pursuit of wealth. Without Marley to share his philosophy of greed, he became a victim of his own self-doubt. Perhaps Dickens, in fooling us into believing people change of their own accord, did point out a truth that the soft “Charlie Brown” like left could learn in dealing with money obsessed right. Do not be afraid to use power in isolating them in their own obsession. If you want change, then you must become the agent of change. Charlie Brown never did get this central fact of life. He goes on living with disappointment engendered by the hope Lucy will change. Lucy, in her craftiness, realizes she can go on enjoying her one-upping of Charlie Brown by enticing him to hope she will change and become cooperatively nice. She knows it is not going to happen. Change is the responsibility of the one wanting change.

The promise of hope and change proclaimed in the 2008 elections has been blocked by an unchanging minority in the legislative branch of government with the collusion of moneyed interests and gerrymandered voting blocs. Hoping for change will change little or nothing. It is the hopers who must change finding the courage to risk upsetting the recalcitrant opponents of a fairer and more just society. Take the ball away from the Lucy’s and use a tee or find someone else who can be trusted to hold the ball in place.” http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ron-cebik/ebenezer-scrooge-and-lucy_b_4434656.html

When it comes to confronting the reality of class warfare in the United States which is creating an ever widening gap between rich and poor I tend to agree with the author Ron Cebik above. Those who would create a feudal corporate society and turn most of us into serfs will not easily relinquish their power, since as I’ve tried to show they believe that they not only have a right to it, but that they are the only ones competent to hold it. If, as I do, you want to create a just society that feels and acts as if we are all inter-connected, then we all must confront the notion that wealth comes as a blessing from above and that because of that is sacrosanct. The sad seamy truth is that far too often the seeds of great wealth have been sown in a soil of corruption and the fruits of it are quite bitter. The super rich among us are not virtuous people, but unfortunately they do not have the insight to see this about themselves. We must disabuse them of their false notions by clarifying the nature of their game.

Submitted By: Mike Spindell, Guest Blogger

Further articles of interest on this subject:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-moyers/class-war_b_4432261.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-silver/jim-himes-hr-992-corruption_b_4426121.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/we-have-met-the-enemy-and_b_4437294.html

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/12/11/1262005/-Teen-Kills-4-Judge-LITERALLY-Lets-Him-Off-Because-He-is-Rich?detail=hide

626 thoughts on “Our “Virtuous” Rich”

  1. I would love to visit Tonyville. Is it just outside Nirvana? 72% of the population of the USA say your take is complete bullshit. So, there’s that.

  2. Tony C:

    agreed but you have to admit that most people worry if the IRS calls. Even if they are paid up.

  3. Nick says: small biz is always in an adversarial relationship w/ the government. The government are bullies and they love to pick on the little guys.

    That is complete bullshit. I have been involved in over 20 small businesses, as an investor, principle, or management level employee. And I mean very small, with under 20 employees; and I never regarded my relationship with the government as “adversarial,” and they never “picked on us.”

    In fact, in my earlier businesses (in my twenties) before I could afford a CPA, I went to the IRS and they helped me, for free, to fill out my tax returns and even found me deductions I did not know about. I had to wait a few hours to see somebody, but when I did I came away paying less than I thought I owed. Plus they never audited any return they helped me with.

    This is just more urban myth. They are only “adversarial” when greedy free-riders are trying to cheat on their taxes.

  4. Bron: I would not freak out if the IRS called. Because I always pay my taxes on time without any dodge or shelter, my taxes are always professionally prepared and reviewed, and if the IRS did ever call me, I would refer them to my CPA and my business attorney, both of whom have decades of experience.

    In my businesses we keep separate and unlinked accounts for various taxes and fill them as the responsibility is incurred. If a business is so close to the edge it has to float on its taxes owed and hope to make enough more money to cover them before they come due, it is a loser. Raise the prices or shut it down and get a job.

  5. Having operated a small biz for 30 years, I KNOW they succeed and fail for a myriad of reasons. However, unlike large corporations w/ the money to buy politicians, small biz is always in an adversarial relationship w/ the government. The government are bullies and they love to pick on the little guys. I have taught my children that when you hear a politician, regardless of political affiliation, that they care for small businesses, they’re almost certainly lying.

  6. Bron, I might freak out if I get a call from Target starting w/, “Mr. Spinelli, about your Target credit card..”

  7. Elaine: Thanks. As usual, Skip doesn’t know what he is talking about.

    I should have added that the same thing goes for income taxes. They are only on profits, and if an owner cannot survive on their after-tax income, their business is worthless, they’d be better off folding and getting a job that pays more. Nobody goes out of business because their income tax is too much.

    What happens when they do? Instead of some income, they now have zero income! So they have to get a job, where they must also pay income taxes. If their take-home from that job is bigger than their take-home from their business, then folding it was the right thing to do, it wasn’t profitable enough to keep open. And if their take-home pay from the job is less than what they were getting with their business, then they should have kept it open, there was no reason to close it.

    High income taxes are never a reason to close a business, and anybody that claims higher income taxes are the reason they don’t want to expand or don’t want to continue is just an idiot or a liar avoiding blame for their own business incompetence and inability to make sales and grow.

  8. Tony C.,

    “Small businesses do not go out of business because of taxes or regulations.”

    My husband has said the exact same thing to me. He helped start three different businesses. Providing his workers with topnotch health insurance didn’t put his companies in the red either.

  9. Skip: small businesses generate jobs when they are successful, that is the nature of business. But most people (including me, at 22) do not have the experience or knowledge to successfully start a business. They think they do, and fail. I started two businesses (with offices, advertising, employees…) that failed before I managed to start a successful one; and as I found out later, my experience is not unusual, even Venture Capitalists only have about a 40% success rate (admittedly with much greater profits on a success).

    When businesses succeed they typically grow, and exponentially. I have seen companies grow 100 fold in a few years: From two people to two hundred people selling exactly one product (for a particular kind of business) in five countries. But things level out, eventually. Big businesses cannot grow like that, they are too massive.

    Small businesses create most of the jobs because, even though 70% (or more) of them are failures, the minority that succeed, that devise or stumble upon something that makes a true profit and satisfies customers as a good buy, have a huge society (even global) that is theirs to reap, as fast as they can. Replication is typically the easy part, all it takes is money to buy the expertise, labor and resources needed. Any competent MBA learns how to do that.

    Small businesses do not go out of business because of taxes or regulations. That shit’s easy. Hire a CPA and a lawyer: Problem solved. Small businesses go out of business because they aren’t selling enough to keep their doors open, and they have run through their capital. Because their idea, as beautiful as it sounded, sucks. Anybody that goes out of business, or can’t start a business, because taxes are too high or regulations are too expensive to meet shouldn’t BE in business, their idea is too close to the edge of failure anyway; they have no leeway for mistakes or miscalculations or to try any experiments with product development or marketing or personnel.

  10. hskiprob said: “Go on and try to legislate various means of trying to get the multi-nations to pay better…”

    Where in anything that I wrote on this thread did you get the idea that I want our government to try to legislate what they do in other countries? You have inferred something from my comments that I never implied. BTW, it’s not the nations that are paying the workers–it’s the multi-national corporations that pay the workers.

  11. Gallup just came out w/ a startling poll that exceeds any previous. 72% of people think the Federal government is too big and has too much power, about double the % that think the same of big biz.

  12. Tony C:

    I keep telling you I am not an anarchist. I also keep telling you that legitimate functions of government cost about 25-30% of our actual federal budget.

    We can cut taxes and reduce spending without putting children and old people into the street. Just roll back spending to 2008 levels and then reduce it 2-5% per year in real terms and in about 10 years problem is solved without hurting anyone.

  13. How McDonald’s and Wal-Mart Became Welfare Queens
    By Barry Ritholtz
    Nov 13, 2013
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-13/how-mcdonald-s-and-wal-mart-became-welfare-queens.html

    Excerpt:
    It seems that welfare queens are back in the news these days. The old stereotype was an inner-city unwed mother — that’s dog-whistle-speak for black — having multiple babies to get ever bigger welfare checks (throw in a new Cadillac and the myth is complete). Regardless, welfare reform of the 1990s ended that narrative.

    No, the new welfare queens are even bigger, richer and less deserving of taxpayer support. The two biggest welfare queens in America today are Wal-Mart and McDonald’s.

    This issue has become more known as we learn just how far some companies have gone in putting their employees on public assistance. According to one study, American fast food workers receive more than $7 billion dollars in public assistance. As it turns out, McDonald’s has a “McResource” line that helps employees and their families enroll in various state and local assistance programs. It exploded into the public when a recording of the McResource line advocated that full-time employees sign up for food stamps and welfare.

    Wal-Mart, the nation’s largest private sector employer, is also the biggest consumer of taxpayer supported aid. According to Florida Congressman Alan Grayson, in many states, Wal-Mart employees are the largest group of Medicaid recipients. They are also the single biggest group of food stamp recipients. Wal-mart’s “associates” are paid so little, according to Grayson, that they receive $1,000 on average in public assistance. These amount to massive taxpayer subsidies for private companies.

    Why are profitable, dividend-paying firms receiving taxpayer subsidies? The short answer is, because they can. The longer answer is more complex and nuanced.

    Both McDonald’s and Wal-Mart are engaging in perfectly legal behavior. The system was set up long ago in ways that failed to imagine companies doing this. Yes, they are taking advantage of the taxpayer, but they are also operating within the law.

    Which means it is time to change those outdated rules.

  14. Walmart: America’s real ‘Welfare Queen’
    10/10/12
    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/10/10/1141724/-Walmart-fuels-inequality-epidemic-taking-advantage-of-our-safety-net#

    Excerpt:
    Walmart, one of the richest corporations in the world, refuses to pay its employees a livable wage or provide any form of decent healthcare, increasing reliance on government assistance, and the need for a social safety net.

    At over $446 billion per year, Walmart is the third highest revenue grossing corporation in the world. Walmart earns over $15 billion per year in pure profit and pays its executives handsomely. In 2011, Walmart CEO Mike Duke – already a millionaire a dozen times over – received an $18.1 million compensation package. The Walton family controlling over 48 percent of the corporation through stock ownership does even better. Together, members of the Walton family are worth in excess of $102 billion – which makes them one of the richest families in the world.

    What is shameful is that CEO Mike Duke makes more money in one hour, than his employees earn in an entire year. Yet, Walmart – which employs millions of people in its stores, distribution centers, and warehouses – continues to abuse its employees and refuses to pay them a livable wage. The company has frequently been charged with wage theft claims by workers who point to the most common forms of wage theft: the refusal to pay proper overtime, the refusal to honor the minimum wage, and illegal paycheck deductions.

    Meanwhile, Walmart routinely blocks any attempt by workers to organize, using anti-union propaganda and scare tactics, firing employees without just cause, failing to provide any form of decent healthcare coverage or a livable wage.

  15. Wal-Mart Says ‘Save Money Live Better,’ But Workers Don’t Make Living Wage And Rely On State Benefits
    By Christopher Harress
    on November 27 2013
    http://www.ibtimes.com/wal-mart-says-save-money-live-better-workers-dont-make-living-wage-rely-state-benefits-1487598

    Excerpt:
    So how much could Wal-Mart conceivably afford to pay?

    Stephen Gandel of CNN money recently calculated that Wal-Mart could afford to give its employees a 50 percent raise, to about $33,315, and still satisfy shareholders. This sounds insane from a shareholder’s perspective as it would lessen the dividend and perhaps the share price, but recent examples suggest otherwise. Three years ago Google Inc. (NASDAQ:GOOG) increased their staff salaries by 10 percent and the share price dipped before quickly recovering. Today it’s worth 60 percent more than before the raise.

    In addition, a little bit of Henry Ford wisdom may also come in handy to Wal-Mart. Ford was famous for paying his workers double the average American salary – why did he do this? Simple: He figured that if he paid his workers more money he would be able to retain the service of the most talented employees therefore resulting in a more efficient, quicker and satisfied workforce. He would also reduce the cost of repeatedly training new employees, ultimately lowering employee turnover and making his company more money. But more than that, Ford gave his workers spending power to buy his products, lifting them into the middle classes and giving them a socio-economic status rarely enjoyed by industrial workers in those days.

    There’s little doubt that Wal-Mart employees shop in their own stores because it’s cheap, but the recent food drive, which prompted employees to give food to other Wal-Mart employees, suggests that this may not be true. In addition, if Wal-Mart did raise its salary for employees it would relieve state and federal welfare, potentially diverting money back to vital public services.

  16. hskiprob 1, December 19, 2013 at 1:59 pm

    Elaine: The solution is rather simple. Get back to full employment and employers will be forced to pay higher wages to get quality people.

    *****

    You should be in Washington advising the President and Congress. And maybe you could explain, too, how we can get back all those manufacturing jobs that went overseas that paid workers a living wage. Isn’t it too bad that big businesses don’t pay their workers a living wage because we don’t have full employment. It’s not the fault of big business. They are just trying to keep their corporate heads above water. Companies like Wal-mart are barely making any profits. I hear that the Walton family is struggling.

    Things are just so simple. It’s too bad not everyone has the vision and insight that you do.

    1. Elaine, You eluded to the thousands of companies that left for overseas but did not elude to the fact that hundreds of thousands of small and medium size companies have filed for bankruptcy and gone out of business in this country. I’m not talking about big business, I’m talking about small and medium size businesses that generates most jobs in a society.

      You’re talking about just the large multinational companies headquartered in this countries that derive much of their profits from overseas. If you set up a tax and regulatory code that allows businesses to take advantage of them, did you not expect them to do so.

      You missed my entire point, hopefully it wasn’t deliberate.

      I did find you conclusion that Government can create gobs. Sure they can, but not ones that are first, productive or second, can last longer than the shovel ready projects we have been funding for 5 years now. All that we have been doing is to provide government contractors with projects that once they’re done, they need another project to do. This doesn’t create long term sustainable jobs.

      We don’t have enough jobs in the country, because we have a government that places to much financial burden on small and medium sized businesses and the people and employees that run them. Big business can work on small percentages and still earn $billions in profits. It’s the economy of scale, I eluded to in my last post. Small and medium companies can not.

      All those who have started businesses in the country know what I’m talking about.

      You can continue to ignore the realities of the affects of excessive taxation and regulations, but that is a big mistake and one our society will continue to suffer from, especially the poor and middle class.

      Go on and try to legislate various means of trying to get the multi-nations to pay better, I actually have no problem with that. But it will not do nearly enough to transform our society back into the once great nation it was. If you put to much pressure on companies, they will just move offshore like thousands of others have done and take our jobs and give them to others.

      You cannot macro or micro manage a perfect world. Central planning has shown the world that it doesn’t work very well, yet we have not learned from our mistakes. We have the entire 20th century as our history book. We have gone from a predominately capitalist country in 1900 to a primary fascist country today. We weren’t perfect by any means then, but we have surely digressed by a significant amount and if we don’t change our course, what do you think is going to happen?

  17. >> Bron 1, December 19, 2013 at 12:54 pm <<

    Good stuff, both sides of these arguments are making very valid points.

    I wish I had time, but don't right now other then to say I don't believe people fully grasp just how harmful the FRS, Income Tax Scam, Govt Regs,Any/All withholdings from any workers paycheck are the USA economy.

    (Govt Regs: Yes Stop Signs are helpful, but don't deny the Regs that are not.)

    As it is now many potential employers like myself have no desire to participate in this USA govt scam, so I just took a good deal of my biz interest overseas.

    I wish it wasn't that way, but it is.

    MERS, Wallst Derivatives, AKA: No certainty of Private Property Title, Zero Ability to insist Business Contracts are Enforced.

    With issues above & others I find it shocking more young guys just don't turn total criminal if they wish to run any kind of business in this country.

    The only other choice they currently have is to move.

    I would have moved already, but to many family ties.

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